The Spiritualzation of FREK

[Be]

tell me what you don't know...

or rather specifically what you don't believe in...

because i am unclear..

and i would like to try and give you my perspective

:cool:
b

[frEk]

damn, you and coz are fascinated by me lately. me and him had a chat till like mad late the other day about this exact thing, hmmmm.......i'm not sure where to start.....but here are some things that i said during that chat....i believe time to be infinite at both ends..therefore making the bigbang(or any other theory that implies a beginning or end to time bullshit)..i believe the mind stops working when the brain does.....the physical is really all there is......i also believe space to be infinite, and therefore exists other intelligent life.....i believe man created god......i believe the "theory" of evolution to be true, in the same way i believe the "theory" of gravity to be true.....ummmm....i'm not sure what else....this might be easier in a chat....but anyway, that's a start

[tinkermichael]

I have seen a drastic change in your veiws and i am curious as to what you believe now! Give us a run down of why we are here and if we are going anywhere or just stuck in the cycle of energies.

what a fucking puzzle! or what a fucking test! or is it just what a fucking mess!

Michael

much love nomatter what

[frEk]

really? a drastic change? hmmm......hadn't noticed....but maybe....we are here for nothing really......just for the fuck of it ya know.......but some sort of knowledge makes the most sense to pick up so as long as your learnin shit then i guess your doin sumthin at least.........are we going any where?.......sometimes i think we've made progress.....but then as soon as i think so.......some muthafuckas wit

*the ideas, opinions, and apathy expressed within this post are not necessarily consistent with those held by the general population of this forum......viewer discretion is advised........the quoting of coz does not imply that he either makes sense or is not old*

[Cozmo D]

Ahem...Frek?
I think he was talking to Be. You really got to stop ASSUMING that everybody's talkin to ya man. And, ya betta stop fukkin wit me, nah mean...man? huh? huh?

Hey Michael, good to have ya back. Let's start talking about curses...that'll really drive Frek crazy...heheheheh

EZ
Coz

ps- maybe I need to drive my vodka drinkin meat eatin stank old ass over to jersey and smack you wit a beef steak...and yes, i'm talkin to YOU now Frek. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[tinkermichael]

I think you should make the beef steak a rare prime rib cut about 14 oz or something.

So what are the details of this curse and what make you believe in them? Is it that curse that adam and eve put on us to make even the babies sinners? I guess mother nature or god would have to be preety vengfull to hold it against your whole family!

Or could it be that this curse is really just life. All life is suffering but love, freindship, caring, and joy and happiness oh and pleasure makes it all worth living.

much love no matter what
Michael

[mattpursel]

Now im gonna post something off the wall

Nostradamus:QUatrain 13:

The Body w/out a soul is no longer put to sacrifice
the divine spirit will make the soul happy
the day of birth becomes
seeing the word in it's eternity.

This is the loose interpetation of the French. -->

"THe body is no longer put to rest"

"the soul will be enlightened"

"Bible's prophecy is fullfilled when humans live eternally. The day of birth fullfills this prophecy. "

Ok, I took the French and stretched the meaning. You'll have to be the judge if Im correct. Ive been cookin shi# in my head this week.

[Etherspin]

1stly !! can anyone who knows what the **** im on about please let me know!! here goes...
for the benefit of frek , but not with intent of persuasion ..

I have one guarantee to myself that there is god, that i am eternal and that im not simply a bundle of matter...

I see thru the eyes of Tim/Etherspinner.. i am me.. if i was just part of a purposeless creation.. i would not see thru these eyes.. beings would exist but their consciousness would be virtual.. and illusion of their own minds.. they would operate as if they did have consciousness but in fact would not..
and there would simply be no seperate conscious entities.. no mind of frek, no mind of tim, just emptyness with the flesh dudes acting on their impulses...

i am me.. there is a fundamental problem in employing this as a sort of proof ... u arent me!!!!
damn!
someone may know what im on about...
let me know

[frEk]

Ahem...Frek?
I think he was talking to Be. You really got to stop ASSUMING that everybody's talkin to ya man. And, ya betta stop fukkin wit me, nah mean...man? huh? huh?

Hey Michael, good to have ya back. Let's start talking about curses...that'll really drive Frek crazy...heheheheh

EZ
Coz

ps- maybe I need to drive my vodka drinkin meat eatin stank old ass over to jersey and smack you wit a beef steak...and yes, i'm talkin to YOU now Frek. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


[b]FUCKING COZ!!!!!!!!! :lol: my names in the damn subject...that's why i thought he was talkin to me dammit....damn ya make me sound like i got all sorts of ME ME complexes dammit.....but damn i had fun puttin' that disclaimer in fuckin wit you is fun :)

peace brutha

and ya come near witta beef steak you'll be shittin it and my sneaker out for a week :cool:

and how'd you know curses and funky superstitions get at me? i don't remember that comin' up, or are ya just startin to figure me out? if so you are the envy of every girl i've ever had :wink:

[Cozmo D]

Well,
without gettin too into it, only just enough to fuck with Frek, how about a curse believed by your own people Michael?

It is well substantiated and even preserved in drawing by Sitting Bull himself, that over a month before the battle of The Little Big Horn, Sitting Bull had a vision of many soldiers falling into camp. These soldiers were all slain and were presented as an offering by (and my memory may fail me here) Watanka to The People. There came with this vision a warning however, that The People were to not desecrate these bodies or the clothing they wore or the posessions they carried. Any disobedience of this warning would bring about great calamity and disaster to The People.
Well, of course, the profecy was fulfilled in the greatest defeat ever inflicted on United States forces during the Indian Wars, but also of course, The People disobeyed the warning and thusly brought about the utter defeat of the Great Sioux Nation, The Upper Cheyenne, and The Arapaho.

Do you believe in this curse Michael?
Your people do.

EZ
Coz

[Cozmo D]

Yo Frek.
You may not wanna believe it.
But me an Be are just throwin' seeds all over the fukkin place.
And you make for a nice big target.

EZ
Coz

ps- One can never be too carefull about where they spread their seed.
:)

[Cozmo D]

Yo Tim.
I feel ya...DEEPLY

EZ
Coz

[tinkermichael]

Do you think that if the warning was followed that the Great Sioux Nation, The Upper Cheyenne, and The Arapaho would still be there. I really don't think so the fuckers would have wiped them out nomatter what. fuck the whole continent was wiped out the south america was taken out by the spanish and the north was taken out by the english the conquires. Do you think that this was a result of a curse.

Let us just look at the curse it self. which you said Sitting Bull had a vission. you are calling this vision a curse but it could have just been a prediction. ;;He might have thought that by heeding the warning it might have been avoided But I don;t think it could have been avoided. My people were strong but they didn;'t have guns.


IF Hitler was on the 20 dollar bill how would the jews feel.

Much love nomatter what
Michael

next curse

[frEk]

[b]i like seeds

[Cozmo D]

No,

You're not gettin me Michael.

A curse is nothing more than a prediction of course, with some underwritten triggers. Anybody can come after a curse happens or not and say it was preordained either way, I was just trying to give you a perspective on curses using something that I THOUGHT YOU believed in.

Afterall, it is you who have said that you have undertaken or are seeking to undertake a visionquest. Well, that is what Sitting Bull did, and his vision came true a month later. Now, his vision had 2 parts, the second with a trigger.

Is it that you believe in 1 part and totally disregard the other? How do you know how the second part of the profecy would have been fulfilled? Maybe it pertained only to that war at hand, and not the extended fate of The People.

You do know that the Sioux are the only tribe to have actually defeated the United States in a war right? That's a war, not a battle. Or maybe they would have received a peace that would have allowed them to hold on to their precious Black Hills until this day.

Is it the word curse that has you so fukkin hung up, that you would then close your mind to what you would otherwise believe? A word is just a very limited way to describe an idea or thought. Example: Did the frog jump, leap or hop? Now translate each of these verbs into spanish; chinese; gaelic. They still mean the same right? Or do they?

All I have heard you talk about are visionquests all this time that I have known you, but as soon as I show you in clear english that probably the most famous visionquest of all time involved a curse it's bullshit?

Or, do you actually not believe in visionquests at all and have been totally pulling all of our legs all this time?

Please let me know if I am wasting my time. I usually spend an hour or so that I should be working and doing what I need to do to feed my family for 1 of these posts, many times a lot longer than that.
I am always trying my best to weigh my words and think out the best laid example to point something out with clarity.

However...lately, I'm beginning to get tired...you can't put shit in a jar if the lid is shut too fukkin tight.

Fuk it, I'm changin my sig again.

[Cozmo D]

Damn, I meant Northern Cheyenne in that earlier post. You'se people are wearing my ass out.

EZ (no it ain't)
Coz

[frEk]

[b]You can lead a coz to vodka...but he would still be a muthafukkin coz!

[Cozmo D]

bump for Michael Tinker

[RjBass]

Ummm Hmmmmmm, Now I have always assumed (and I do assume many things very wrong) that curses were laid upon people by another persong or life form (either physical or spritual), where as seeing vissions of what may come were just that visions and predictions. However I don't see any reason why a spritual being could not offer a curse to a living person in the form of a vision, but I still think that their is a speration of the two.

Of course I really don't know much about the topic and like I said could be totaly wrong.

[Cozmo D]

Again, what we have here is a problem with getting hung up on words, a syntax error if you will.

People automatically believe that once they hear the word "curse" it means fire and brimstone, but the actual meaning is much more encompassing and universal.
A curse can be that, but it can also be nothing more than a simple negative prediction or wish. When your mother told you that "someday you're gonna have kids just as rotten as you are", well that is a curse. Maybe she has no power to make it happen, so it's a powerless curse, but a curse all the same. Or when you say about someone you don't like, "I hope he drops dead", this too is a curse. Maybe you didn't really mean it or you don't have the power to make it happen, but it's a curse just the same.
Just think...suppose it did happen? Of course you would scoff and disbelieve any possibillity of it having anything to do with what you said, but...you would never trully know.

The Sitting Bull vision was not the curse, the curse was implicated inside of the vision. It had the parameters of: if The People desecrated the bodies of the soldiers, which they did do, a great calamity would fall upon The Great Sioux Nation, which also happened. The fact that every detail of this vision came to pass should cause any true believer of this type of vision to at least consider the impact of the curse encased within it.

Now mind you, I have never said that I believe in this curse, this vision, visionquests, or any other visions for that matter. It is Michael who has gone on and on about his native heritage, his passion to go on visionquests, his paganism, yada yada yada. So here I go presenting him in a quite thoughtful manner (at least I thought) with an extremely well documented example of a curse that was FULFILLED within his own culture and stated beliefs, one that the great majority of others who are from that culture believe in.

What does he do? He immediately dismisses it.

Well it has always been of my observance that when someone claims something vehemently, yet knows very little about it (I know more about his culture than he does) and is quite willing to cast it aside at the slightest whim, then it was usually all a facade from the beginning.

This whole curse question got started when I made an observation about tarot cards carrying implied curses. I was greeted with much rancor and scepticism, and eventually felt like it was a subject best kept to myself.
I never could fully comprehend how somebody might take as a passing matter of fact that tarot cards may have some strange mystic power to foretell the future on 1 hand, yet there is no such thing as the strange mystic power that a curse may have on the other.
To me this is closed mindedness at 1 of it's worst examples. People were actually acting like the fact that I brought up the mere possibillity that curses exist was a personal affront.

<sigh>

Like I said, I hate wasting time.

This is why I enjoy interacting with Frek. He doesn't believe in ANY so-called "funky Stuff", not just the shit he doesn't like. No hypocrasy in that.

EZ
Coz

[frEk]

This is why I enjoy interacting with Frek. He doesn't believe in ANY so-called "funky Stuff", not just the shit he doesn't like. No hypocrasy in that.

[b]oh shit, my brutha......that's too funny

[tinkermichael]

hey I never said that I knew more than you. also I did not dismiss the vission I only dissmissed the curse. So If they did not desacrate the bodies they would still be here and would not have been demolished? OK then.

I got into this curse thing when you said your family was cursed because of something your relitive did. I am still curious as to why you believe this. I am in no way saying that you are wrong I am just curious of how you came to this conclusion.

I guess curses can and do work if the person cursed believes in the curse.

Hey take it easy I have not put the tons of time into studing about every aspect of every indian culture. I just know what I was thought by my family and school.

Much love nomatter what
Michael

[tinkermichael]

I understand that a curse is difficult to prove or to disprove. that is why I was asking if you believed that god controls chance and coenceidence? I am still stuck on the issue.


thanks for the insite.
Michael

[Cozmo D]

But Michael, if you dismiss the curse then yes, you are dismissing the vision.

The Sioux Nation is still here and who knows what might have happened without the desecration. I have no idea, because first of all it is not my vision to interpret. It was Sitting Bulls. Second of all the curse is not even part of my belief system, it is part of yours, or at least the one you have claimed up until this point.

I suggest you ask some of your tribal elders or your family what they're feelings are on the matter as I don't have any. I only presented it to you as an item to ponder and maybe study.

You insulted your own religious system by dismissing it out of hand, not mine. You only insulted me in wasting my time and effort by shooting it down right from the outset, without giving it any thoughtful consideration at all.

As for my spiritual/mental/metaphysical beliefs, I choose not to share them with anybody who chooses not to be open to them. So far, you have shown yourself not to even be open to your own.

EZ
Coz

ps- I still love ya though...let's just stick to sports or somethin'.

[tinkermichael]

the reaon I dismiss the curse is I do not believe that god is vengfull. I am also unsure of how much influence god controls in our lifes. as for all the vission references I just said i would like to try with out the use of substances. I do not live on a reservation nor know anybody who does. I do love and respect alot of my cluture but that does not mean I believe in every thing my cluture believes. I was raised as a babtist but that does not mean I believe everything babtist believe. Realy I am only interested in the big picture.

Does god control chance? yes or no I am still unsure as to witch I am.

In my experinces I have felt god watching me and even feeling proud of who I have become. But even that has still left me unsure of the above question.


I am sorry coz I hope I have not severd our knowledge line. IF so I ask for forgivness for I am only a grasshopper

much love
Michael

[Cozmo D]

Does god control chance?

Ask Him.

EZ
Coz
:wink:

[RjBass]

You people really need to spend more time with Women with whom you have had no prior history with. Or at least start using your hands more.

[Cozmo D]

Hey Michael,

It just occrrred to me that you already know the answer to your question.


In my experinces I have felt god watching me and even feeling proud of who I have become.

If God controlled chance, then He wouldn't be feeling proud of you, He would be feeling proud of Himself. Since you yourself have felt this feeling and in fact seem pretty sure of what it is...then there is no doubt that at least for you, God does not control chance and your destiny is your own to find.

Hope this helps.

EZ
Coz

[tinkermichael]

I'll take any and all pics of the puzzle to try to gain a understanding of the big picture..

So we have control of our own destiny's but what about the chance and coencdence that we can not control?

It seems to conveinent to blame the devil for all the bad chance. I don't think I even believe in the devil If i DID wouldn't I give him power over me!

thanks

much love
Michael

[Elizabeth]

Hey Coz...

Maybe I wasn't reading carefully enough, :wink: but, are you saying that if a vision had never been had, the Sioux wouldn't have fallen? are you blaming the way history went on a vision?
I mean, visions predict the future, they don't write the future...
And if I believe in anything "funky", do you think I'm a hypocrite?

Do my dreams pen my life?
Elizabeth :squint:

[Cozmo D]

Nah sweet, you'se on about 3 different topics at once.

All I was doing was repeating what Sitting Bull said about the Sioux. As far as I know about his vision it didn't promise ultimate victory for the Sioux if they obeyed it, but it did promise ultimate defeat for them if they didn't.

I have no idea if visions write the future or make the future or what. All I was doing is showing an example of a curse in Native American culture.

As far as the "Funky Stuff", which is Frek's phrase, I believe in all sorts of manners of it, and I choose not to DISBELIEVE that which I either have not enough information about to make a judgement on, or that which has not enough established facts about either pro or con.

What I said about Frek is, He doesn't believe in the spiritual realm AT ALL, IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, FOR ANY REASON. Thus he steers completely clear of hypocrasy. This by no means signifies he is correct in any way.

As for me, there is a myriad of "funky stuff" that I believe in, alot of which I absolutely do not like. Thus my statement on those who choose to embrace that of the spiritual realm that they find pleasent, but disbelieve all that they do not.

Hope this clears up my position a little bit.

As for your dreams penning your life...I have no idea.

Who knows...maybe they pen mine.........

EZ
Coz

[tinkermichael]

I am clear to where you are coming from and I am somewhat there but I guess I do like to accept the good and dismiss the bad. But when y9ou do not even have dreams to back up your beliefs can you believe them

Michael

[Chief]

bump...... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Deity]

Chief, what is it with you and bumping up old, old, old threads, anyway?? :itch: