irony or akward timing?

[syxxpm]

has anybody noticed the passion of christ is running up against hellboy this week? :roll:


and am i the only one who thinks this is rather funny :lolbonk:

[Chukwuka]

I can't wait for the numbers to come in...

Not Ironic! Someone sending a message...

[Harmeister]

Hellboy won by a large number this weekend.

PotC : $9.9 million (6th)
Hellboy: $23.5 million (1st)

However the opening week of the PotC brought in $83,848,082

[Harmeister]

Also ironic: I will see hellboy and not the Passion of the Christ. Why, you ask? I will see no rated R movies. tPotC is rated R, HellBoy is not.

[Chukwuka]

It's a trip...

Hellboy that is!!!

Didn't waste my time with the box office smash movie hit "The Passion of the Christ"

Hey, where's the soundtrack? :blahblah:

[filmwizdaddy]

Yall know Hell Boy is really a myth based on the B. P. R.D. a goverment agency that is supposedly taping into paranormal life. In WW II Hell boy was by some a real being that fought in the war. There are some pictures of "Hell BOy" It was supposed to be half human and of course devil. There was a picture of this creature and the army together in a squadron pictoral. Do some searching on the net and you may find some of these pics. It is rather interesting. Much like the Lochness monster. ;)

[cabotb]

That is funny.

By the way, I saw The Passion of the Christ and found it to be very beneficial to me. I recommend it, especially for Christians.

I haven't seen Hellboy...yet!

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by cabotb@Apr 6 2004, 03:35 PM
By the way, I saw The Passion of the Christ and found it to be very beneficial to me. I recommend it, especially for Christians.

This is 1 "Christian" who won't be going to see it. That movie is just a continuance of the Roman pollution and polliticization of a most pure and beautiful Middle Eastern relligious movement and enlightenment. Christ was about His messages and teachings, and His ressurection. Only a savage and brutal people like the Romans could take something so beautiful and holy and distort it into a worship of torture and death, and actually adopt the instrument of that torture as the symbol of THEIR religion!

PHEH!!!

[cabotb]

Coz, surely you can understand that the cross is not valued as a symbol of torture but for the ultimate sacrifice that Christ made for us.

And I think that’s the point that this movie makes: He suffered and died for us. That was His whole purpose in being born. Of course the teachings are to be valued, but this film really drives home His sacrifice, which was something that no one else can do.

The blood in the movie is not “cool,” like that of a Quentin Tarantino movie. It is horrifying, sure. But His blood is life. Isn’t that what Jesus said?

[Etherspin]

to go off a bit, tarantino, ive never really liked his movies, but I felt like in my teens there was a pressure to say u liked em cause they were "cool" because of the disregard of the main characters, and the violence etc.. the epitome of this being pulp fiction..lots of my mates would go on and on about it but i think it was too be cool , it seemed that way !

[Cozmo D]

Mark has 16 chapters and only 1 and 1/2 are about Jesus' sufferings. Luke has 24 and only 1 and 1/2 are about His sufferings. John has 21 and only 2 are about His sufferings. Matthew has 28 and only 2 are about His sufferings.

What early Christian emphasis there was on the cross and the suffering of Jesus was to give strength to the early Christians as they too had to suffer. The cross was not an item of worship but a symbolic metaphor...something that all Christians had to "bear and carry", not bow down to.

The blood of Jesus' death was to wash away our sins according to the early Christians, not the blood shed at his torturings. His ressurection is what grants us eternal life. His teachings were our guideline of how to live, in order to receive this eternal life. All of this is clearly laid out in the Scriptures.

It was the Romans under Constantine, a pagan who lived 3 centuries after Jesus, that began to switch the emphasis from the life, death and ressurection of Jesus to the suffering of Jesus. It was Constantine who 1st made the cross a symbol of reverance, and used that symbol (though he adjusted it's appearance over time) as a rallying point for his conquest of the entire empire.

Think about it...the symbol that so many Christians revere was 1st used as a symbol of war, death, and destruction.

It was Constantine who championed the concept of The Trinity...forcing it's adoption throughout all Christendom. It was Constantine who forced all of the churches and Christian movements to buckle under to his new Roman Catholic (Universal) Church or be crushed...and he crushed many of them. Many, many Christians were tortured and/or slaughtered at his hand, all for the sake of his new state controlled religion.

It was Constantine who made it law that the entire empire...including all Christians...make their weekly day of worship the day of Constantine's most revered deity, Apollo The Sun God. This is because despite how much Constantine did to create and form the base of what almost all Christian churches follow to this very day, he remained a pagan until his death bed. EVERY SINGLE THING that he did in creating, shaping and forming the Catholic Church, he did FOR POLLITICAL REASONS. Almost the entirety of Christendom has been disobeying the 4th commandment ever since. In case you didn't know, Apollo has a name as well in the Judaeo/Christian tradition...Lucifer.

I could go on about this forever...but the bottom line is...you, Mel Gibson, and most of Christianity have been bamboozled by a 4th century pagan savage. He and his barbaric people took a movement of peace and love and made it one of hate, conquest and war. They took a side story of the gospels and made it the main event, and used that new main event as the catalyst to persecute the Jews (which Jesus, His apostles, and almost all of the early Christians were) for the next 1700 years!

I give less than a flying turd what was in Mel Gibson or anyone else's heart in making this film and continuing this sham. The fact that you think that 8 out of the 89 chapters of the Gospels were "His whole purpose in being born" or that His teachings are only "to be valued" drives home the depth of the deception.

Take away the tortures and you still have Christ's teachings, the sacrafice of His life through His death, and His ressurrection...the entirety of significance to the original Christians. Take away the teachings of Christ...which is exactly what the Catholic Church nearly succeeded in doing...and all you have is a murdered deity and a reason to take out your vengeance on an innocent people.

[Chief]

so clubbing baby seals is acceptable......i knew i was right

[Brian221]

I may be ignorant to the facts...but I've attended services and have friends in just about every denomination of protestant and catholic churches, and they ALL focus on the life, death and ressurrection, not the suffering...once a year, most churches do focus on the suffering, for one night... nothing wrong with being reminded that he suffered and died...went to hell...so we don't have to...

Also...you mention that churches should focus on the life, death, and ressurrection, then went on to say we're bamboozled to focus on the gosples as the main event....
the gosples ARE the account of Jesus' life death and ressurrection - perhaps I just missunderstood what you meant there.

Now...all that Constantine stuff...AGREED...evil man...however...the Trinity may have been the term he coined, BUT....Matthew 28 "
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
...Jesus just didn't give it the catchy name.

I just wanted to make those few points...all in all, I agree with you...Mel Gibson -- if he'd actually made a movie about the importance of the life, death and ressurrection, and not focussed on the suffering...he wouldn't have gotten the funding to make it in the first place...THATs just the nature of the world.

[filmwizdaddy]

What the fijuk is a baby seal and ONCE AND FOR ALL WHAT IS A DANG HORSE DOG??????


It sounds like MIA HAMM A TOMBOY OR SOMETHING.....thick legs and muscley bootay cheeks that can crack a skull open. SHEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




:lolbonk: :lolbonk: :lolbonk: :lolbonk: :lolbonk: :confused:

[Cozmo D]

No Brian, you misunderstood. I said the bamboozling was in taking a side story of the Gospels, that of Jesus' suffering, and making it the main event.

The passage that you quote is just a confirmation of the importance of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It does NOT claim them to be all one and the same...which is what the concept of The Trinity does. Constantine didn't invent or coin the phrase of The Trinity...he just forced it to be the only accepted concept where as before him it was actually in the minority.

I don't recall Jesus ever saying in the Gospels that He was God...or that He as God will be sending Himself as God in the form of the Holy Spirit.

[cabotb]

Gee, Coz. Have you by chance ever written a research paper on this subject? :) I have not done the extensive research on Constantine that you have, so I will take your word for all of that.

So you understand where I’m coming from, let me modify what I said earlier. Christ’s whole purpose in being born was to save us from death and give us eternal life. The culmination of that process was His death and resurrection (which, in my opinion, was the ultimate miracle), which fulfilled the scripture. Please don’t diminish with the word “only,” the fact that I said Jesus’ teachings should be valued. It was simply my point to show where this film’s emphasis lies.

I do not believe the focus of this film – that of Christ’s suffering and death – gives any cinematic sanction for vengeance of any kind. There is no reason or logic to those kinds of acts.

Regardless of what happened in the 4th century, we “bamboozled” people today see the cross (usually with Jesus on it) as a sign of salvation, hope, and love, as well as a reflection of Christ’s teachings. And that is what matters. Just like, after seeing The Passion of the Christ, I came out with inspiration, love, and renewed faith. It's brutal to watch, but look at all the good that is coming out of it.

Perhaps the best point I can make is that I have seen the movie and so I can say for sure what I felt throughout and afterward.

[Cozmo D]

Once upon a time I was well on the path towards being a spiritual leader of sorts...thus my life-long search for and love of the Truth. ;)

I'm sorry, but I disagree with your and most Christians' seeing of Jesus' reason for being crucified as to save us from sin and to give us eternal life. This was a concept that I feel wasn't even developed until Paul. If you remember in the Gospels Jesus doesn't even tell His followers about His impending death and ressurection until right before it is to happen. His reasons for it are to fulfill scripture. It is by following and believing in Him that He says one may gain everlasting life, and the only way to do that is by embracing His teachings.

The Catholic Church and many of it's successors have succeeded splendidly in drowning out the spirit and teachings of Christ with pollitical machinations such as passion plays...which is exactly what TPOTC is. If they had followed or revered the teachings of Christ they could NEVER wage war in his name, yet multitudes of millions more people have died under the cross than under the swatistika.

Perhaps Mel Gibson's focus (perhaps) was not on the sanctioning of vengeance, but it is exactly what passion plays were historicly and traditionally designed and created to do. Maybe if somebody were to redo "Birth Of A Nation" it wouldn't cause people to run out and lynch blacks either, but I would still find it dispicable.

I would also disagree with your contention that people see the cross as a sign of salvation, hope, love, or Christ's teachings. They see an item of worship, plain and simple. Let somebody desecrate that cross and see what happens.

The bottom line is...instead of worshiping God and following Jesus, which is what Jesus wanted, most Christians now worship Jesus and follow the church...which is what Constantine wanted. All this movie does is continue that, by placing reverance for Jesus' suffering way above reverance for his message and teachings.

And the only good I've seen come out of it so far is all that good money fattening Gibson's pockets.

[cabotb]

Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 03:47 PM
And the only good I've seen come out of it so far is all that good money fattening Gibson's pockets.

Then you aren't looking hard enough. There is vast goodness of many kinds that has come about as a result of this film.

The real bottom line is: Despite all your researched criticism, you still haven't seen this film.

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by cabotb+Apr 7 2004, 04:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cabotb @ Apr 7 2004, 04:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 7 2004, 03:47 PM
And the only good I've seen come out of it so far is all that good money fattening Gibson's pockets.

Then you aren't looking hard enough. There is vast goodness of many kinds that has come about as a result of this film.

The real bottom line is: Despite all your researched criticism, you still haven't seen this film. [/b][/quote]
Can you name some of this "goodness"?

Oh...and I've never seen "Birth Of A Nation" either. ;)

I don't need a movie to aid me in my Christianity. :)

[Brian221]

Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 02:47 PM
I would also disagree with your contention that people see the cross as a sign of salvation, hope, love, or Christ's teachings. They see an item of worship, plain and simple. Let somebody desecrate that cross and see what happens.
That's actually how I see it...and how the people at my church see it...that's why I wear one. Its a symbol of my faith, my love, and how I choose to live.


I actually only see one good outcome from TPATC... even though it is showing the gruesome side-story as you put it...it has brought the religion itself to the attention of millions who never gave it though before...though it may be scewed...it may affect a lot of people in a positive way...kind of like a Christian heavy metal band...

[Chief]

im waiting to see it in the privacy of my own home....for one..i hate crowds..number 2...its very personal experience...plus im a cheap ass

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by BrianCCXXI+Apr 7 2004, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BrianCCXXI @ Apr 7 2004, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 7 2004, 02:47 PM
I would also disagree with your contention that people see the cross as a sign of salvation, hope, love, or Christ's teachings. They see an item of worship, plain and simple. Let somebody desecrate that cross and see what happens.
That's actually how I see it...and how the people at my church see it...that's why I wear one. Its a symbol of my faith, my love, and how I choose to live.
[/b][/quote]
So, if I took a cross and put it in a glass of urine, it wouldn't mean anything to you?

[Chief]

my reaction would be no..it wouldnt mean anything to me...its not the cross that i worship...but i see where your coming from coz...i believe most people would be up in arms seeing that..when in essance (sp) it should be about his teachings and how you should live your life and how you treat others..and knowing he died for your sins....


one thing though...you get to fetch it out of the cup..:)

[Chief]

but on that same note..doesnt the bible tell you to respect others...what may be right for me..may not be right for others, kinda scenario

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by BrianCCXXI@Apr 7 2004, 04:52 PM
I actually only see one good outcome from TPATC... even though it is showing the gruesome side-story as you put it...it has brought the religion itself to the attention of millions who never gave it though before...though it may be scewed...it may affect a lot of people in a positive way...kind of like a Christian heavy metal band...
I think for every positive aspect there are also negatives. The continued anti-Jewish slant of the passion play, regardless of subtlety, is a major problem. From what I have read it also abounds with scriptural inaccuracies. Just to keep Chief on his toes, let me also point out the continued insistance of portraying Jesus, His apostles, the Jews, and all of the other inhabitants as European by race in a land that's a short walk from and traditionally and historicly dominated by Africa.

Again, my passions (no pun intended) are history and Truth, and knowing both behind all of the particulars of this movie I will NOT be spending my money to support it. I may 1 day watch it for free however, but hell, I'd watch Gigli for free too. ;)

Perhaps to make up to the Jews, Gibson could make his next project about the story of Job, but instead of dealing with the entire story and the message behind it, he could just spend 2 1/2 graphic hours on his boils affliction. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Chief]

RACISM

[Chief]

OH..and for you newbies who dont know...i call out racism whenever Coz is oppressing my people...

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by Chief Cwictocilacitee@Apr 7 2004, 05:35 PM
my reaction would be no..it wouldnt mean anything to me...its not the cross that i worship...but i see where your coming from coz...i believe most people would be up in arms seeing that..when in essance (sp) it should be about his teachings and how you should live your life and how you treat others..and knowing he died for your sins....


one thing though...you get to fetch it out of the cup..:)
I agree with everything you say here Chief, except the last part. I think the "Christ died for our sins" thing probably comes from Paul. It's never made any sense to me. Christ LIVED for our sins, and died so that He could rise again, and thus prove to us that He was indeed sent by God...and His Word is holy.

[Chief]

point well taken...see..i can learn sumtin

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by Chief Cwictocilacitee@Apr 7 2004, 05:36 PM
but on that same note..doesnt the bible tell you to respect others...what may be right for me..may not be right for others, kinda scenario
Not sure what you're getting at here Kimosabee? :dunno:

[Chief]

hehehe...yeah..after i reread that, i thought...wtf were you getting at...LOL...i know what i was meaning, but it went deeper into the question that it needed too..

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by Chief Cwictocilacitee@Apr 7 2004, 06:02 PM
RACISM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I can always count on you Chief! :roll:

[Harmeister]

Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 06:07 PM
I agree with everything you say here Chief, except the last part. I think the "Christ died for our sins" thing probably comes from Paul. It's never made any sense to me. Christ LIVED for our sins, and died so that He could rise again, and thus prove to us that He was indeed sent by God...and His Word is holy.
This is where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints differs from a lot of other Christian faiths as well. Did Christ suffer for our sins? I believe that he did. Was it on the cross? No.

So here comes the doctrine, agree or disagree, that's your choice. Several hours before Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus, he went to the garden of Gethsemane to pray. Each Gospel gives a slightly different account of what happened here, (in fact John barely touches it) both because each was written by a different person and for a different intended audience. They all agree that Christ went into the garden to pray. It is here where He paid the price for our sins. It was here that He took upon Himself all the sorrow and pain we ourselves will need to experience in order to be forgiven. What happened was more than just a philosophical idea as well, Christ "sweat ... as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:44). Metaphysically speaking, for a man to sweat one drop of blood is a freaking lot of pain. Enough to put you out even. However, Christ is a God. He was able to endure. It's because of this suffering (in the garden) he can act as our advocate before God at Judgement, not because of what happened on the cross.

Don't get me wrong, His death on the cross was important, but the Garden of Gethsamane was more so. He is the only person who had the power to resurrect Himself. No one else could have done that. And because of that we will all (every single one of us, regardless of how "good" or "bad" we are) will be resurrected. This gift is for free to everyone, irregardless of what they have done. Of course if you're good, you get to be resurrected first, there has to be some benefit for obeying the commandments :) (OK, there are others as well, I'm just poking fun at myself)

I'm with Coz on this one though, I'm not going to see the movie, if for slightly different reasons. Glorifying that particular portion of His life on the "big screen" is unimportant to me. Reading is always better than a movie anyways, it lets you experience it as you individually are meant to experience it (through the promptings of the Spirit). Even if it was free, though, it's still rated R. I made a vow never to see a rated R movie (nope, not even Matrix or Blade, both of which I *really* want to see), and that's still true. It'll be true till the day I die.

[Chief]

got to hand it to ya harm....thats quite a task youve taken there man...

[Chief]

see..its all in the interpretation.....

[Harmeister]

I've done it off an on for my whole life, and full time for two years. I think I'm up to it.

I won't Bash (Harm's dictionary - Bash: to argue back and forth over interpretation of scriptural passages or points of doctrine where neither side will agree that the other has a point), that serves no purpose. But on any given point of doctrine, I'll do my best to explain what I believe is right and back it up with scripture as necessary.

[filmwizdaddy]

Again whatsA HORSEDOG>>>>>MIA HAMM???? THE SOCCER PLAYER?? MUSCELY WOMEN??

[cabotb]

Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 04:45 PM
Can you name some of this "goodness"?

Oh...and I've never seen "Birth Of A Nation" either. ;)

I don't need a movie to aid me in my Christianity. :)
Coz, I could go around the Web and compile a list of the many good things, but I'm home from work and feel too lazy now. I'll leave it up to you to seek out if you think I'm making it up to help my argument.

And a viewing of The Passion wouldn't be an aid for your faith but for your critique of the movie. Just think if someone bemoaned a new P.M. Dawn album here and later admitted they hadn't even listened to it! Yikes!

On a related tangent, did anyone see the documentary on the Shroud of Turin tonight? It was on the PBS eqivalent (Channel 13 in New York). Very thought-provoking, curiosity-arousing stuff.

[filmwizdaddy]

ARGHHHHH :madrant:

[LumtheMad]

I didn't see any of that but i did see a damn fine special on the Hindenburg. It's was pretty interesting all the way around. Nothing like big exploding Zeppelins with Nazi symbols on them to rope you in. Don't know what the show was called but it was on public broadcasting and it was all chock full of interesting things...

like.....The designer of the Hindenburg wanted NO PART of the Nazi symbols on the blimp but was forced. He also made sure to have the zeppelin named and placed on quickly because he did not want the blimp to be named -The Adolf Hitler-


See what happens when Lum finds a station he shouldn't....he learns.....

[Cozmo D]

My intention is not to critique the movie per se, my intent is to slam it for even being made. I would not be at all surprised if it was an excellent movie. As Filmwiz can surely inform you, "Birth Of A Nation" is tauted as perhaps the greatest film of it's era.

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by Harmeister@Apr 7 2004, 07:36 PM
What happened was more than just a philosophical idea as well, Christ "sweat ... as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:44). Metaphysically speaking, for a man to sweat one drop of blood is a freaking lot of pain. Enough to put you out even. However, Christ is a God. He was able to endure. It's because of this suffering (in the garden) he can act as our advocate before God at Judgement, not because of what happened on the cross.
Sorry Harm, but I think you may be slightly off on your comprehension of that passage. The King James can be a real pain with it's Olde English phrasings and bad interpretations. The New International has Luke 22:44 as and His sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground, obviously a metaphoric description.

Frankly Gethesmane has always appeared to me as Jesus praying for strength in order to make it through His ordeal. He was also asking God to find a way to let Him skip it all together if it was at all possible. I agree that this is indeed suffering of a stressful nature, but nothing like the physical suffering that was to follow...which not only was Jesus seeking to avoid but would cause Him to doubt God on the cross.

Regardless, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus suffered tremendously, or even that He metaphoricly suffered for our sins. What has always troubled me is that religion based on Jesus Worship is what we mostly have today, instead of God Worship and Jesus following. Remember, the only prayer that Jesus ever taught began "Our Father..." thus lowering Himself to an equal level with us and lifting on high God The Father ALONE!

If Jesus were here in the flesh today, I fully believe He would be 1st in line to kick over the table of that money changer Mel Gibson, and rebuke him for pretending to be doing holy work in making millions on a movie that exploited His suffering while ignoring His message.

[Harmeister]

Originally posted by Coz+Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Coz @ Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sorry Harm, but I think you may be slightly off on your comprehension of that passage. [/b]
On that point we'll just have to agree to disagree. Could be a mataphor, could be real. Until I meet him face to face and ask him, we'll never know. That and I need to learn how to read ancient Greek (which luke was written in). But even then, it'll be interpreted. Nope, We'll just have to wait and ask him.


Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM
Regardless, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus suffered tremendously, or even that He metaphoricly suffered for our sins. What has always troubled me is that religion based on Jesus Worship is what we mostly have today, instead of God Worship and Jesus following.

I have to totally agree with you here. Worship God, our Father, not Jesus, His Son. Jesus is *extremely* important, he taught us all what we need to do, so we follow him. but when it comes down to it we need to worship our Father who art in Heaven and only him. The LDS church recognizes three distinct individuals in the Godhead: the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Each is a God and has all the powers associated with that calling. However God the Father is in charge and Christ and the Holy Spirit are councilors to Him. One in purpose (our eternal exaltation), not one in physical body (think about the baptism of Christ when all three were present individually). Let there be no doubt who is in charge: God the Father.

<!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM
If Jesus were here in the flesh today, I fully believe He would be 1st in line to kick over the table of that money changer Mel Gibson, and rebuke him for pretending to be doing holy work in making millions on a movie that exploited His suffering while ignoring His message.[/quote]

I Second that.

[Chief]

yep...yep......damn fine discussion......yep...yep....

[cabotb]

Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM
Regardless, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus suffered tremendously, or even that He metaphoricly suffered for our sins. What has always troubled me is that religion based on Jesus Worship is what we mostly have today, instead of God Worship and Jesus following. Remember, the only prayer that Jesus ever taught began "Our Father..." thus lowering Himself to an equal level with us and lifting on high God The Father ALONE!

I hate to keep picking at this subject, but there are some very valid points for worshiping Jesus as we worship God.

Take, for instance:

John 14:1
"Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me."

And particularly this one:

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.'"

It's passages like these that put Jesus and the Father on the same level. After all, isn't this the Christian faith? It's not blandly named something like the monotheistic faith.

[Harmeister]

That may be the point Coz was making, but it wasn't mine (alhtough I see how it could be construed that way). We worship the Father *through* Christ. He is the intermediary.

It's also different if He was in your presense. When Christ was on the earth, especially after He was resurrected and glorified, he was here and we worshiped Him. Now, though we worship God, *through* him. Christ always wanted all the glory to go to the Father.

[Chukwuka]

COZ, you are one insiteful, wise, and intelligent guy!
I have mad respect for you!

I feel what you said about how people worship Jesus and follow the church! That is why I really don't do the church thing. Not say'n it's wrong but the church is like the government to me! GOD says trust no man!

C. yeah you know me!!

I'm gonna have to go through all the posts to really give Chukwuka's opinion to this I just wanted to give it up to the COZmeister!!! I'm not diss'n anyone else from what I've read so far His thoughts are somewhat like mine...

[Chief]

so you believe the world is flat too...dammmmmmmmmnnnnnn

[Brian221]

Originally posted by Coz+Apr 7 2004, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Coz @ Apr 7 2004, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by BrianCCXXI@Apr 7 2004, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 02:47 PM
I would also disagree with your contention that people see the cross as a sign of salvation, hope, love, or Christ's teachings.* They see an item of worship, plain and simple.* Let somebody desecrate that cross and see what happens.
That's actually how I see it...and how the people at my church see it...that's why I wear one. Its a symbol of my faith, my love, and how I choose to live.

So, if I took a cross and put it in a glass of urine, it wouldn't mean anything to you? [/b]
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Easy cowboy. :banghead: My bad here...
I quoted too much of what you said there by accident...this is what I meant to quote...
<!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 7 2004, 02:47 PM
I would also disagree with your contention that people see the cross as a sign of salvation, hope, love, or Christ's teachings.* [/quote]
That's actually how I see it...and how the people at my church see it...that's why I wear one. Its a symbol of my faith, my love, and how I choose to live.

That make more sense now?
I'd probably have to b!tch slap you if you put a cross in urine :slap: ...but you're not the type of person who would do that knowing how I truley feel about it. :bigthumb: See above :stupid:

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by cabotb+Apr 8 2004, 09:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cabotb @ Apr 8 2004, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM
Regardless, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus suffered tremendously, or even that He metaphoricly suffered for our sins. What has always troubled me is that religion based on Jesus Worship is what we mostly have today, instead of God Worship and Jesus following. Remember, the only prayer that Jesus ever taught began "Our Father..." thus lowering Himself to an equal level with us and lifting on high God The Father ALONE!

I hate to keep picking at this subject, but there are some very valid points for worshiping Jesus as we worship God.

Take, for instance:

John 14:1
"Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me."

And particularly this one:

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.'"

It's passages like these that put Jesus and the Father on the same level. After all, isn't this the Christian faith? It's not blandly named something like the monotheistic faith. [/b][/quote]
Mind you guys, I'm not looking on any of this as an arguement at all, but a highly enjoyable discussion. I hope you guys see it in the same way. As a matter of fact, having been raised as a practicing Catholic, I still in fact cross myself before and after I pray, and I do indeed pray to Jesus or at least in Jesus' name(though no longer to Mary or saints). As a Christian in what I feel is the purest sense of the term, I have long come to the conclusion that it's all moot anyway. It's not about how you pray, but how you live and how you love! :)

OK... ;)

1st of all...John is the least reliable of all the Gospels. It was written over 60 years after Jesus' death, at a time that the Christian churches were seperating themselves from their Jewish brethren. The Jewish War of 66 to 73AD had already occurred and Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed. Hundreds of thousands of Jews had been slaughtered and even more dispersed throughout the empire. However, tensions remained at a fever pitch and Jewish uprisals continued throughout. What is more, the growing rift between those Jewish sects that were Christian and those that were not had become a chasm due to the Christians refusal to join their brethren in arms.

Now, the already persecuted new Christian sects (notice that is a plural) saw as a matter of survival their complete seperation and alienation from Judaism. Thus, the extremely obvious anti-Jewish slant of John.

In John, the author is trying to establish Jesus' authority as an intermediary for God. This is essential for a people who are newly and permanently cut off from what had before then been their conduit to God...The Temple. It also served to increase their expansion with a people who had never been part of God's Covenant...the Gentiles. This is why the author begins his book with his essay on the Word becoming flesh.

Regardless, even in this book Jesus is portrayed as intermediary, not as God Himself. Jesus says throughout that we may ask things of Him, but He remains subordinate to The Father.

You used John 14:1 and 14:6. Let us continue.

John 14:15-31

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave.


In these passages Jesus makes it clear that God is greater than He. He also makes it clear that the only way to The Father is to obey His (Jesus') teachings. There is much more even in this book to support this...if you wish I'll add those as well.

Here's a quicky:

Matthew 4:8-10

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'

Again...what sums it all up for me pretty clearly is The Lord's Prayer. All throughout the Gospels Jesus gives glory to God, and God alone. He states that the only way to God is through Him (Jesus), and the only way through Him is through His teachings.

Yet throughout history it has been the teachings of Jesus that have been ignored, the glory of God that has been forsaken, and the worship of Jesus that has been emphasised...something that appears to be completely different from what Jesus intended.

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by BrianCCXXI@Apr 8 2004, 02:05 PM
[QUOTE=Coz,Apr 7 2004, 04:24 PM]
I'd probably have to b!tch slap you if you put a cross in urine :slap: ...but you're not the type of person who would do that knowing how I truley feel about it. :bigthumb: See above :stupid:
Ahhh...but then you have proven my point. ;)

Sure you see the cross as a symbol of your religion, and through that religion as a symbol of your faith, your love, and how you choose to live. But in reality it's really a symbol of worship and reverance...one that I'm sure you have actually used as an instrument of prayer at times.

There are many of us who believe that people should have the right to burn flags, but desecrate a cross and you condemn them to hell. This because we have never truly worshipped the flag, but we have worshipped the cross for over 1700 years!

My original point is still this. The cross is Constantine's doing...not God's...not Jesus'. If Constantine had decided to use the symbol of the skull representing Golgatha instead of the cross, we would all be bowing down to skulls now. We would all be looking on skulls as representative our faith, love and way of life. And don't you dare dip that skull in urine!!!

Constantine used that cross to wage war, and war, suffering and death have followed it ever since...EVEN UNTIL THIS DAY!!!

This is NOT of Christ, and is NOT of God!



However...I would NEVER put a cross in urine, as I am just as much a victim of tradition as most of us. I just do not go blindly. ;)

[Brian221]

I wouldn't bitch-slap / wage war against you...I was just kidding ( and wouldn't have said that if this were an "on-topic" conversation)...in all honesty...it would deeply sadden me.

In my reality...its a symbol of sacrifice...the ultimate sacrifice...for a man to die so horribly for what? Living a life of caring, generocity and love that will never again be matched.

You seem dead set on the concept that the cross is a symbol of suffering, pain, and war...but...just because that's how it was represented by Constantine, and still represented as such today by many, doesn't mean it can't symbolize the opposite...

I thank God everyday for that sacrifice...for showing me how to live...and the cross is the most accurate reminder/representation/symbol of exactly that. As you said, the ressurrection was one of the most important events of Jesus' stay here...if you think about it, the cross represents it...because NO ONE could survive death on a cross...except God's son.
I choose to wear a cross for those reasons...but you don't have to choose to agree.
:peace:

...dig?

[Cozmo D]

No, I do choose to agree...and have a rather large cross that my mother gave me that I actually wear on stage from time to time. I just know the history, that's all.

I'm sure those that wear swastikas find positive reasons to wear them as well. ;)

[Brian221]

:bigthumb: phwew...sweet...now I can go back to slacking off at work...
Thanks for the excellent debate though...I don't think I've ever gotten this involved in a post yet...
And I was thinking the EXACT same thing about the swastika earlier...

[Cozmo D]

You know me, I LOVE a good debate! Glad to be of service. :)

[Chief]

*quickly pulls off patch*

[Cozmo D]

Though, now that I reread your post, my point was never that the cross was a symbol of suffering or pain or anything negative...only that it was a symbol of worship...and that only a barbaric people like the Romans could take an instrument of torture and make it their symbol of worship.

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by Chief Cwictocilacitee@Apr 8 2004, 04:29 PM
*quickly pulls off patch*
It's the tatoo on your forehead that you need to worry about! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Chief]

"and that brings us back to Doe Doe Doe........"

[Brian221]

Originally posted by Coz@Apr 8 2004, 03:31 PM
Though, now that I reread your post, my point was never that the cross was a symbol of suffering or pain or anything negative...only that it was a symbol of worship...and that only a barbaric people like the Romans could take an instrument of torture and make it their symbol of worship.
I concur!!!!!
Let's get a beer... :beer:
Although that might have a bad interaction with Chief's prescriptions...

[Cozmo D]

Sounds good to me! :beer:

If Chief slips into a coma we can divy up whatever's in his wallet...

[Chief]

just do me a favor..if freks around..super glue all my orifices and tell him im still alive

[Cozmo D]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Brian221]

:roll: :rofl: :lolbonk: :roll: :rofl: :lolbonk: :rofl: :rofl: :whip: :roll:
I need to go home... :wavey:

[Brian221]

Originally posted by Coz@Apr 8 2004, 03:42 PM
Sounds good to me! :beer:

If Chief slips into a coma we can divy up whatever's in his wallet...
On the real...you can just have the dollar...I don't want to have to get change.

[Cozmo D]

Originally posted by BrianCCXXI+Apr 8 2004, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BrianCCXXI @ Apr 8 2004, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 8 2004, 03:42 PM
Sounds good to me! :beer:

If Chief slips into a coma we can divy up whatever's in his wallet...
On the real...you can just have the dollar...I don't want to have to get change. [/b][/quote]
:bowlaugh: :bowlaugh: :bowlaugh: :bowlaugh: :bowlaugh: :bowlaugh: :bowlaugh: :bowlaugh: :bowlaugh:

[Etherspin]

I saw the film last night, I really did enjoy it , I know it only represents 12 hours of his entire life but it was well done ,it seemed to capture the spirit even if there were some inaccuracies ... I liked how when jesus passed a place he knew or a person he knew it would flash back to a significant moment in his past involving that, in this way these brief moments showed how he was in the rest of his life, e.g. draggin the cross through the streets he remembers the same streets but on palm sunday when he was there for a whole different reason & when mary magdelene is at his feet and he recalls saving her from being stoned 2 death, ohh and the most heart wrenching one, and pure artistic license from mel gibson .. SPOILER (hehe a spoiler for a story thousands of years old) , jesus falls trying to carry the cross , mary flashes back 2 him as a child trippin up and fallin outside their home, she picks up the child and says "im here" and then she pushes through the crowd to her adult son and says the same. it was added in obviously but thats probably how any mother watchin that happen 2 her son would feel...

on the bad side.. what the hell is up with the satanic figure, i mean fair enough satan has appeared to jesus in his past so perhaps he did during the crucifiction to tempt him into giving up but why does this devil carry a baby with a twisted face like a man ?? i may be missing something somewhere in the bible??

I fully appreciate the 2 dimensional aspect of the movie , but it did touch on the real jesus, it showed how the pharisees twisted his words as well..

[cabotb]

Originally posted by ETHERSPIN@Apr 9 2004, 02:37 AM
why does this devil carry a baby with a twisted face like a man ?? i may be missing something somewhere in the bible??

Glad someone else here went to see the film, Etherspin. That scene with the devil carrying the creepy baby is meant to be the devil mocking Jesus. Think of all the depictions in art of Mary holding the baby Jesus - that is what the devil is mocking in that part of the movie. The androgynous nature of the devil really helps here! Very creepy. I don't know where the idea came from, but it works though.

[Etherspin]

good point man .. i see what your sayin bout the imagery now ... and although its like artistic license it does work , also there was the rotting animal around judas as well(when he hung himself).. i nearly jumped when that demon thing shrieked in his face .. i think what was added in was like extrapolation, an extra human element .. it was also kinda weird the colour to jesus' eyes was that because the actor had blue eyes and they wanted them brown ?? cause they almost looked as if they were red !!!!!

anyone who hasnt seen the movie dont get the wrong idea, what ive just mentioned about sums up what was added to the film, except for the flashback 2 jesus falling over as a child..
it all worked very well i thought ..

2 worst moments for me were the flashback when he was fallin as a child, and when the roman soldier grabbed that rope tied to his arm and said, no , this is how you do it.. everyone gasped around me..

on the bad side, knowing the background to the story , i did benefit from seeing the movie, but there was a woman comin out of the cinema who did not seem to, she just looked at her mate and said, i dont know what all the hype was about .. it seemed that she had no perspective to it, just heard it hyped up as a movie about this dude that coincedently was quite gory...