can i ask a serious question?

[Terrick]

i was looking at some old threads, and this question popped into my head:

where the hell did you guys find Chief? or how did he find you?

[Mistress M]

Well, see this stork flew over a cabbage patch one day and took a dump...

[Harmeister]

:rock: :rock: :hammer: :rotf: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[SaintHax]

i was looking at some old threads, and this question popped into my head:

where the hell did you guys find Chief? or how did he find you?


how the hell did we end up with you?

[Mick]

I think random google searches are to blame

[Chief]

wooooahhh..what did i do now????

[Terrick]

nothing, you're just....unique. and i've never known your relation to pm dawn.

[Chief]

JC is my father.....thus the reason for my unique dancing skills...

[eternals layre]

JC is my father.....thus the reason for my unique dancing skills...

The running man, then Chief got tripped up and kinda fell into here.

[Harmeister]

JC is my father.....thus the reason for my unique dancing skills...

dude, JC is probably offended by that. He wouldn't want a punk whiteboy for a son.

[Chief]

im not white......jesus..how many times do i have to say it..

[Chief]

im indian dammit

[Chief]

and not a damn dothead indian either...............

[Chief]

not that there is anything wrong with dot head indians...

[Chief]

nor anything wrong with white people

[Chief]

but those effing eskimos have whats coming to them.....

[Chief]

bastards havent been opressed in what.....3000 years????

[Terrick]

:rotfl:

[Harmeister]

im indian dammit

I'm half African... but we're both white. :D

[pmFan]

:clap: :rotf:

[Terrick]

okay, but seriously, guys. what is chief's connection with pm dawn?

[Chief]

i have no connection.....just a fan sir..just a fan....

[Moe]

is a persian white or black?

i was watching malcom x the movie today and i was like "fuck the white devils" then i'm like oh shit i think i'm white.

haha

[Cozmo D]

is a persian white or black?

i was watching malcom x the movie today and i was like "fuck the white devils" then i'm like oh shit i think i'm white.

haha
Persians are neither, they are Asians, which makes you more Indian than Chief! :lmao:

[Mistress M]

Persians are neither, they are Asians, which makes you more Indian than Chief! :lmao:

Persians, like the rest of the Middle East, are considered racially white, not Asian. I don't think we're even considered a "minority," although that might have changed with recent events.

[Cozmo D]

Persians, like the rest of the Middle East, are considered racially white, not Asian. I don't think we're even considered a "minority," although that might have changed with recent events.
So, everybody in the Middle East is considered racially white huh? :bs:

I guess it all depends on who is doing the considering! :rotf:

[Mistress M]

So, everybody in the Middle East is considered racially white huh? :bs:

I guess it all depends on who is doing the considering! :rotf:

Well, true dat. Although you're right on calling me that many Africans also live in the Middle East. But Persians and people of "Middle Eastern descent" anthropologically (and according to the U.S. census categories) are "white/ caucasian" racially. Which disappointed the hell outta me when I filled out my college applications many years ago. I was hoping to cash in on some minority fellowship, but alas!

[Hero1]

"chief" began when he went to see pm dawn at the decatur show.. he hasn't looked back ever since... stoppy stopp!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Moe]

Well, true dat. Although you're right on calling me that many Africans also live in the Middle East. But Persians and people of "Middle Eastern descent" anthropologically (and according to the U.S. census categories) are "white/ caucasian" racially. Which disappointed the hell outta me when I filled out my college applications many years ago. I was hoping to cash in on some minority fellowship, but alas!


so a pakistani guy is a white guy


what on earfffff

[Mistress M]

A pakistani guy may be considered Asian, but I'm not sure about that. But people from Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Israel, UAE, Saudi Arabia, etc. are of a Middle Eastern ethnicity but are racially white.

[Alix]

Pakistani and Indian people are considered West-Asian.

[Cozmo D]

A pakistani guy may be considered Asian, but I'm not sure about that. But people from Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Israel, UAE, Saudi Arabia, etc. are of a Middle Eastern ethnicity but are racially white.
:bs:

[Mistress M]

:bs:

Do you do this just to drive me nuts? My dad's Middle Eastern and I've been checking off census boxes all my life. Look it up dude.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_68178.htm

White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish.

Asian. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam. It includes "Asian Indian," "Chinese," "Filipino," "Korean," "Japanese," "Vietnamese," and "Other Asian."

If you really want to get technical about race, the American Anthropological Association has officially taken the stance that genetically there is no such thing as racial categories at all: http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Cozmo D]

Yeah, well if you're gonna let the USA define who you are racially then go right ahead. After all, they have traditionally and LEGALLY said that if you have a single black GREAT GRANDPARENT then you are black!:rolleyes: Like I said, it all comes down to who's doing the considering.

From your 3rd link (EXCELLENT, THANK YOU!!!)

Historical research has shown that the idea of "race" has always carried more meanings than mere physical differences; indeed, physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them. Today scholars in many fields argue that "race" as it is understood in the United States of America was a social mechanism invented during the 18th century to refer to those populations brought together in colonial America: the English and other European settlers, the conquered Indian peoples, and those peoples of Africa brought in to provide slave labor.
Of course, you and I already knew this, so pardon me if I don't tow the federal line on race. I basically agree with the premise that there is no such thing as race, but since we are programmed to be racially minded allow me to say :bs: to the American position one more time. It is obvious to me and to everyone who has eyes that Southeast Asians and North Africans are much closer to Central Asian stock than they are to European. As for Persians themselves, all you need do is check their physical depictions of themselves in their ancient artwork and see that they looked even less European then. Of course, Alexander's conquest brought European infusion and it would be naive to think that did not continue throughout history, but, by MY consideration, they are NOT white! :butt:

[Mistress M]

It is obvious to me and to everyone who has eyes that Southeast Asians and North Africans are much closer to Central Asian stock than they are to European.

Whoa horsey! I'm sorry, but I think your "eyes" are looking from a very limited perspective on what Middle Easterners looks like. And maybe it's because there's a limited idea of what "white" looks like too. What do you consider mediterranean people to be?

Here's a woman who I went to college with: Her parents are Persian, she was raised Muslim. She also has green eyes and freckles (although you can't see them very well in the picture).

This man is Saudi Arabian: and so's this guy: and this guy:

And let's look at the crown prince of the UAE:



And these young men are from Jordan:

Check out the one on the far right...looks almost like an Indiana frat boy?




As for Persians themselves, all you need do is check their physical depictions of themselves in their ancient artwork and see that they looked even less European then. Of course, Alexander's conquest brought European infusion and it would be naive to think that did not continue throughout history, but, by MY consideration, they are NOT white! :butt:

Even in the ancient art, Persians look Mediterranean. Here, let's play a game. Tell me which of these are Persian (pre-dating Alexander) and which are Greek:

[Mistress M]

However: if you want to say Middle Easterners are not "white" because the concept of "white" denotes a position of geo-political power and privilige, I would agree. But don't do it because anyone with "eyes" can see that they "look" Asian. No one in my dad's family looks even remotely "Asian," and I don't think that makes them less middle eastern.

[kernil]

I'm Ceaserian

Born by ceaserian section.

Still leave the house by the windows

[Terrick]

:giggle:

[Cozmo D]

In the pictures, the only person who I would have automatically presumed to be white was the one who you pointed out as looking like a frat boy. Every other one looks non-white to me. BTW, I know MANY black people with green eyes and freckles, not sure what your point was there. My youngest son has freckles.

In the art the only one that clearly looks non-white to me is the bottom, though I can't make out the one immediately above it at all. The statue of the lone standing man I could go either way with.

I picked both Terrick and Moe as being of non-white decent immediately upon seeing their pictures, even though neither had said anything about their heritages. I did miss SDL though, but Lebanon was a crusader state so that is understandable.

So, how'd I do? :wiggle:

[Cozmo D]

However: if you want to say Middle Easterners are not "white" because the concept of "white" denotes a position of geo-political power and privilige, I would agree. But don't do it because anyone with "eyes" can see that they "look" Asian. No one in my dad's family looks even remotely "Asian," and I don't think that makes them less middle eastern.
Perhaps our real disagreement is over what an "Asian" looks like? "Asian" today has come to denote what used to be called "Oriental" when I was growing up, but that is not what I mean at all. Asia is our largest continent, with many different peoples, all having their own rather distinct features. I mean "Asian" in the broadest of senses, as one who looks like they descend from the continent of Asia. I mean white as one who looks like they descend from the continent of Europe, also a very broad statement.

[Cozmo D]

I'm Ceaserian

Born by ceaserian section.

Still leave the house by the windows
:haha:

[Chief]

bwahahahhahahhaha kernil

[Mistress M]

Perhaps our real disagreement is over what an "Asian" looks like? "Asian" today has come to denote what used to be called "Oriental" when I was growing up, but that is not what I mean at all. Asia is our largest continent, with many different peoples, all having their own rather distinct features. I mean "Asian" in the broadest of senses, as one who looks like they descend from the continent of Asia. I mean white as one who looks like they descend from the continent of Europe, also a very broad statement.

Well, according to pre-dna physical anthropology, "Asian" means fairly specific traits -- a particular orbital structure, "shovel-shaped" incisors, a particular hair type, etc. (although like in the previous article I put up, these categories are all in flux). Middle Eastern people typically do not have these physical features.

But descended from the continent of Europe meaning what? Would you group southern and eastern Europeans the same as northern Europeans? I would argue that Middle Eastern people resemble other Mediterranean people -- Italians, southern Spanish, Greek, the Balkans -- more than they resemble someone from China or Japan (truthfully, my mom's and dad's families look alike). Would you consider these European groups to be non-white as well? Or would where they come from trump their physical appearance in your categorization? What about Arabic people from Africa -- Egyptians, for example. Are they still Asian, or are they African? (hehe, answer this one carefully, it's a pet peeve).

Oh, and the bottom one is Greek. The answers are: Persian, Persian, Greek, Greek, Persian, Greek. The point I wanted to make with this is that in the ancient world, Mediterranean people all looked very similar. But also that you can't always tell just from self-depiction: sometimes certain art "vogues" swept the region and everyone made all their sculptures look to fit that aesthetic. Kind of like the videos on MTV.

[xtristessax]

for me this topic is dealing with 2 issues. race as defined by science and race as defined by culture.

in dealing with race you have to be careful, and i think make the distinction, between what your approach is. Coz said earlier about white to him meant people like frat boys, which is obviously more of a cultural approach, while Mistress M is talking about DNA, which is more scientific but cannot be argued in the same way that cultural definitions of race can be.

so then the question becomes, if we have to say that "races" exist at all, how do we define them?

In Brazil, by how they define race, people can change race, depending on their culture as well as their skin color. Getting a tan changes your race there.

I would consider myself white, but my culture is totally different from frat boys. hmmm....no polo shirts in my house!

[Mistress M]

I would consider myself white, but my culture is totally different from frat boys. hmmm....no polo shirts in my house!

:lmao:

[Cozmo D]

Well, according to pre-dna physical anthropology, "Asian" means fairly specific traits -- a particular orbital structure, "shovel-shaped" incisors, a particular hair type, etc. (although like in the previous article I put up, these categories are all in flux). Middle Eastern people typically do not have these physical features.

But descended from the continent of Europe meaning what? Would you group southern and eastern Europeans the same as northern Europeans? I would argue that Middle Eastern people resemble other Mediterranean people -- Italians, southern Spanish, Greek, the Balkans -- more than they resemble someone from China or Japan (truthfully, my mom's and dad's families look alike). Would you consider these European groups to be non-white as well? Or would where they come from trump their physical appearance in your categorization? What about Arabic people from Africa -- Egyptians, for example. Are they still Asian, or are they African? (hehe, answer this one carefully, it's a pet peeve).

Oh, and the bottom one is Greek. The answers are: Persian, Persian, Greek, Greek, Persian, Greek. The point I wanted to make with this is that in the ancient world, Mediterranean people all looked very similar. But also that you can't always tell just from self-depiction: sometimes certain art "vogues" swept the region and everyone made all their sculptures look to fit that aesthetic. Kind of like the videos on MTV.
This is wearing me out. Fine, they're all white. While we're at it, so are Turks, Hispanics and East Indians. It's all European bullshit anyway, invented to give them an excuse to fukk the world over in the name of Christ with a semi-clear conscious.

Sorry Moe, turns out you're white. :comfort:

[Mistress M]

This is wearing me out. Fine, they're all white. While we're at it, so are Turks, Hispanics and East Indians. It's all European bullshit anyway, invented to give them an excuse to fukk the world over in the name of Christ with a semi-clear conscious.

Sorry Moe, turns out you're white. :comfort:

Don't get pissy with me, you know how you and I play. I'm trying to get you to define the categories you're using -- you can't just be like someone's white or not because you, Coz, can take a look at them and determine it. I'm just asking you to define what these categories mean to you. We've both agreed they're constructed, so I'm asking you to tell me the constructs we're working with.

Take a breather and come back to it.

[Cozmo D]

:kiss: No, I've had 2 hours of sleep in the last 36 hours, and Chief and Harm frustrated the shit out of me by making me explain the simplest of shit over and over again. All the while you sat in here and stored yourself up for this debate and ignored that foolishness. Not fukkin fair!

I'm on a plane tomorrow and got hella work to do tonight, and trying to match wits with you is making my hair hurt. I'm conceding this one before I burst a blood vessel.

[Mistress M]

Haha, we'll call a truce for now, but with the hope that combat will resume when the opposing army is in better shape! :cheers: Why on earth you would waste the time skooling Harm and Chief when you could be having a civilized debate with me...

Take care of yourself or you'll catch this damn plague I have. I finally got the damn dr to see that chicken soup wasn't making it better and got to drop $100 on antibiotics. I have personal reasons for supporting socialist medicine ;)


So...debate to resume at a later date. And I even promise not to look anything up on it in the meantime

[pmFan]

So...debate to resume at a later date. And I even promise not to look anything up on it in the meantime Careful, Coz, she probably already has a list of points ready! :haha:

[Cozmo D]

Haha, we'll call a truce for now, but with the hope that combat will resume when the opposing army is in better shape! :cheers: Why on earth you would waste the time skooling Harm and Chief when you could be having a civilized debate with me...

Take care of yourself or you'll catch this damn plague I have. I finally got the damn dr to see that chicken soup wasn't making it better and got to drop $100 on antibiotics. I have personal reasons for supporting socialist medicine ;)


So...debate to resume at a later date. And I even promise not to look anything up on it in the meantime
Thanx, you feel better too!:cheers:

[Cozmo D]

Careful, Coz, she probably already has a list of points ready! :haha:
Think I don't know that?! :rotf:

[Wheeljak]

Wow. I take a sabbatical, and look what happens. Y'all hoodlums are turning Leisure World into the Firing Line.

I would add to it, (race is one of my favorite topics of debate), but I'm gonna just watch for a little while longer. It can be fun to be quiet.


I would consider myself white, but my culture is totally different from frat boys. hmmm....no polo shirts in my house! But you are an artfag.
You'll dance to anything by the Smiths! :haha:

[Cozmo D]

Yeah, I'm thinking of moving it. :D

WHERE DA HELL YOU BEEN ANYWAY? :cuss:

[xtristessax]

But you are an artfag.
You'll dance to anything by the Smiths! :haha:


oh man that is soooo true!

[Moe]

Yeah, well if you're gonna let the USA define who you are racially then go right ahead. After all, they have traditionally and LEGALLY said that if you have a single black GREAT GRANDPARENT then you are black!:rolleyes: Like I said, it all comes down to who's doing the considering.

From your 3rd link (EXCELLENT, THANK YOU!!!)

Of course, you and I already knew this, so pardon me if I don't tow the federal line on race. I basically agree with the premise that there is no such thing as race, but since we are programmed to be racially minded allow me to say :bs: to the American position one more time. It is obvious to me and to everyone who has eyes that Southeast Asians and North Africans are much closer to Central Asian stock than they are to European. As for Persians themselves, all you need do is check their physical depictions of themselves in their ancient artwork and see that they looked even less European then. Of course, Alexander's conquest brought European infusion and it would be naive to think that did not continue throughout history, but, by MY consideration, they are NOT white! :butt:

dude fucking exactly haha the goverment can tell you who you are now too? lol oh boy "if its in democracy then it is a scientific fact!"

[Moe]

This is wearing me out. Fine, they're all white. While we're at it, so are Turks, Hispanics and East Indians. It's all European bullshit anyway, invented to give them an excuse to fukk the world over in the name of Christ with a semi-clear conscious.

Sorry Moe, turns out you're white. :comfort:


You are smarter then i thought, damn my man i've always thought this

[Moe]

well not the white part, but i can tell whites i'm white because democracy said so, and blacks i'm not a white boy because i'm middle eastern...i can work both ways like i do now heh, i'm usually the only non black person who talks to them in my very white school but most my freinds are white...But a few times they ask me why i talk to those people and i said dont talk to me ever again.......i don't beleive in race i beleive in natural traits,physicle shells....a shell cant define who a person trully is,i dont even know why we bother to care about race.....to some extent obviusly but it is blown out of perportion big time.

[Wheeljak]

Yeah, I'm thinking of moving it. :D
WHERE DA HELL YOU BEEN ANYWAY? :cuss:
Just taking a little time for introspection.
No, I was not in jail.:)

[pmFan]

You'll dance to anything by the Smiths! :haha:Doesn't everyone else?:haha:

[Wheeljak]

Here's another Persian...
This is Sarah Shahi FathAli Shah Qajar (Sarah Shahi for short).
She's the great-great granddaughter of an Iranian Shah, and is a Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader.



She's Persian, although her breasts may be American... :haha:

Y'know, I wonder how many hotties like this are in Iran, all hidden behind those cloaks and head wraps. Shariah hurts everyone!

[Terrick]

hey, she has half of my last name!

[Wheeljak]

hey, she has half of my last name!
She can take all of my last name, if she wants.
I could see it now... my family reunion...
"Hey, DJ! So that's your wife? What is she, Porta Rikkan, or somethin'?"

[xtristessax]

i saw a globe trekker once where they visited the home in Iran, and the female host hung out with the women of the family. all of these women wore full make-up and lingerie under their robes. it was their way of protesting.

[Wheeljak]

i saw a globe trekker once where they visited the home in Iran, and the female host hung out with the women of the family. all of these women wore full make-up and lingerie under their robes. it was their way of protesting.

Sometimes, civil disobedience is hot.