i love this picture!!!

[xtristessax]

sorry it just had to be said, but i love this pic!!!

[sdldawn]

reminds me of mardi gras

[Etherspin]

theres gotta be millions of good pm dawn pics out there... where'd they go!!!

[Doo-DooHead]

Talk about flashbacks!!! They were in london i believe and working on the Bliss Album!!!

[Etherspin]

ahh how that clothing contrasts dreary london..

[Cozmo D]

Not me. All I remember from pix like that is thinking that I was watching a rapper with the potential to be 1 of the greatest of all time allow his image to be manipulated and distorted by the devil.

Sorry, but that's how I felt. Still do to an extent. Sure Pop music may have gained an extremely gifted writer, but Hip-Hop may have lost a prophet or even a messiah.:sad:

[sdldawn]

wouldn't it be a great concept for be to do like an alter ego album.. like a 2cd..

for example.. the first album doing a sortof dearest christian/jesus wept songwriting...

the 2nd cd.. hip hop.. the way Be does it best..



When that gets released. reserve me 10 copies :rock:

[Wheeljak]

Not me. All I remember from pix like that is thinking that I was watching a rapper with the potential to be 1 of the greatest of all time allow his image to be manipulated and distorted by the devil. The devil being whom?


Sorry, but that's how I felt. Still do to an extent. Sure Pop music may have gained an extremely gifted writer, but Hip-Hop may have lost a prophet or even a messiah.:sad: From where I was sitting, it seemed that Hip-Hop abandoned PM Dawn, and not the other way around, likely because PM Dawn was a hip-hop act that had crossover appeal, and "crossover" was an obscene word in the world of Hip-Hop back then. I didn't know any Hip-Hop artists, but I knew a lot of Hip-Hop fans, and I saw a great many fans decide to abandon an artist if they noticed it catching on with white fans. If not for this ridiculous need for exclusivity, nobody would have felt the need to discount PM Dawn as an act that "went pop", instead hailing PM Dawn as an artist too big to be stuffed into a one-genre bag.

[ChrisLDog]

From where I was sitting, it seemed that Hip-Hop abandoned PM Dawn, and not the other way around, likely because PM Dawn was a hip-hop act that had crossover appeal, and "crossover" was an obscene word in the world of Hip-Hop back then. I didn't know any Hip-Hop artists, but I knew a lot of Hip-Hop fans, and I saw a great many fans decide to abandon an artist if they noticed it catching on with white fans. If not for this ridiculous need for exclusivity, nobody would have felt the need to discount PM Dawn as an act that "went pop", instead hailing PM Dawn as an artist too big to be stuffed into a one-genre bag.

That's how I saw it too. With my friends, it was a case of them not really listening to lyrics unless it was profanity. They dismissed it immediately without really listening to it.

Coz, I'm intereseted in what you thought could/should have come of PM Dawn if it had gone differently for them.

[Mistress M]

I want to hear Coz's opinion on this, it's an interesting take. I saw it the same as Wheel and Chris - that hip-hop felt they weren't "hardcore" enough. Coz, is it some early stuff you're thinking of - like they had to "sell out" in order to get a contract?

[Cozmo D]

All you guys know is what came to you through the radio. By then it was over a year later. Sorry DJ, but from where you were sitting you couldn't see shit.

You want to know who the devil was? Ask Be how many of his masters does he own. Here, I'll answer that question for you... 1. The 1 he did with me. The devil has the rest of them, because that is what the devil does.

The kid that came to me, the kid that I signed, had the potential to be 1 of the dopest rappers ever! Every other rapper that came through my studio, and there were MANY, was in fukkin AWE! He was on some deep consciousness Hip-Hop shit, the kind of shit that could change the world. He was just a kid from Jersey City, but his thought process was already so deep and his skills on the mic, as a lyricist AND as a songwriter were already primed. He was just a kid so he was a bit naive, very much so about some subjects, but he had the potential to RULE Hip-Hop, and EVERYBODY saw it!

I believed in this kid, even after our first record flopped and my partner lost interest. I was prepared to move him to another distributor and build an entire new label around him. Then, the devil stepped in...

Suddenly, people who did not know him OR the culture decided that they could make money with his potential, if they shaped it towards their markets and interests. They filled his head with foreign thoughts and ideas, and started steering his image from one of consciousness to some psychedelic hippy persona.

And they started separating him from me.

They told him of the wondrous plans that they had in store for him, dressed him up in hippy clothing, and bought the rights that I had refused to take from him for a pittance. Though I don't know for a fact, I'm sure that they did their best to poison him against me, as they refused to take my phone calls. I worked my ass off trying to warn him, telling him how I "smelled the dick coming", but it was to no avail. I couldn't compete with them. In the end, they caused a rift between us that would last for over 10 years, they bought out my lawyer from underneath me, and they robbed me of my friend, Be of his rights, and Hip-Hop of a legend.

As for that crossover crap, that's some bullshit. I was crossover in fukkin 1984! Where he lost Hip-Hop was where they influenced him into abandoning his blackness. The kid that I signed was a proud black brother who understood that his people were fukked up, but wanted to do what he could to change that. Listen to the words of "Ode To A Forgetful Mind" again. Not long after the rift that they had caused between us was complete he was in magazines denying that very blackness that he used to be so proud of. For Hip-Hop that is a mortal sin. Fukk that shit with KRS, that was nothing. It was saying in print that he didn't have a color during a time that Hip-Hop was at it's most conscious and pro-black level that did it. For a black rapper back then to claim that he wasn't black was no different than saying that he wasn't Hip-Hop!

The kid I signed could have changed Hip-Hop, he could have shaped it. And with his deep sense of righteousness and integrity he might even have saved it. Instead, he was lured into the land of tie-die and crystals, by soulless devils who's only interest in his music was how much money it could make them, and once he held no more value to them they abandoned him.

And to me it's still a sad thing, maybe not so sad for Be, but definitely sad for Hip-Hop. :sad:

[sdldawn]

i hear ya..


but am i a devil worshiper for diggin them clothes and albums where he majority sings ? :think: :)

[Cozmo D]

i hear ya..


but am i a devil worshiper for diggin them clothes and albums where he majority sings ? :think: :)
No. The devil would have dressed them in furs, skins and tiger's teeth if it would've helped them make a few bucks more.:cheers:

[Cozmo D]

BTW, do y'all realize that He could've been Outkast before Outkast was Outkast? It had NOTHING to do with the music.

Have you ever heard anyone claim that Arrested Development wasn't Hip-Hop? They were in the same time, sung in their records as much as they rapped, and varied their music just as much. ;)

AND, they crossed over! :cheers:

[sdldawn]

It still boggles my mind they arent more famous than they are now

[Terrick]

BTW, do y'all realize that He could've been Outkast before Outkast was Outkast? It had NOTHING to do with the music.

Have you ever heard anyone claim that Arrested Development wasn't Hip-Hop? They were in the same time, sung in their records as much as they rapped, and varied their music just as much. ;)

AND, they crossed over! :cheers:


i loooves me some arrested development.

i do'nt know what the deal is with this crossing over stuff, but pm dawn and arrested development are my two favorite hip hop groups. and i think that the music they're both making today is just as good as it always was. and that's my two cents, even if it's not really related to this topic. but that's what happens when you mention AD around me.

all i know from this thread is that the media or somebody screwed up pm dawn and big daddy koz was trying to save them and it didn't work. or something. damn that devil!

[Etherspin]

Coz, if and when Be goes in that direction we'll be lapping it up.

[sdldawn]

I honestly think it can still happen.. one powerhouse album and its back on for pm dawn.. i think their sound is welcomed in todays music..

[Cozmo D]

Coz, if and when Be goes in that direction we'll be lapping it up.
I'm not saying what he should do, I'm saying what I wish he'd have done.

And X, if he had stayed in Hip-Hop, he would've been a LEGEND now.:rock:

[Cozmo D]

I honestly think it can still happen.. one powerhouse album and its back on for pm dawn.. i think their sound is welcomed in todays music..
AGREED!:cheers:

[Wheeljak]

BTW, do y'all realize that He could've been Outkast before Outkast was Outkast? It had NOTHING to do with the music.

Have you ever heard anyone claim that Arrested Development wasn't Hip-Hop? They were in the same time, sung in their records as much as they rapped, and varied their music just as much. ;)

AND, they crossed over! :cheers:
I can see your point, and mostly, I think you're right.
However, you seem to be saying that gimmicks used to sell PM Dawn's music were detrimental to the act, and I have trouble agreeing with that.
AD's first album was a grade-A work of art, but it was festooned with gimmicks. Just as much gimmickry was used to sell AD records as was used for PM Dawn, if not more.
Remember them doing shows dressed in rags like sharecroppers, and do you remember them decorating their stage with that taciturn old man Baba Oje, who usually did nothing during the stage show but bob his head? None of that had anything to do with their music or their message; it was all gimmickry. It's just that their gimmickry was more acceptable to the Hip-Hop community, as it was seen as "blacker" than the tie-dye, love beads and granny glasses in the PM Dawn videos. I wasn't particularly fond of PM Dawn's hippie trappings, either, but I just ignored it, because it didn't take away from the music.

[xtristessax]

he IS a legend to me. and i dig the clothes. thats why i love the pic!

[Mistress M]

I dig the clothes too.

*running and ducking for cover*

[Wheeljak]

he IS a legend to me. and i dig the clothes. thats why i love the pic!

I dig the clothes too.
*running and ducking for cover*
Looks like the chicks dig the love beads...
If I had known that back in '93, I woulda worn them too!:)

[sdldawn]

The response from this small amount of people regarding be's music is huge.. and i know we arent the only one's.. you mention the music elsewhere and the same response starts to emerge...

[Bonkman]

I honestly think it can still happen.. one powerhouse album and its back on for pm dawn.. i think their sound is welcomed in todays music..

AGREED!:cheers:

SECONDED! :rock:

------------------------------------------------

My thought is that back in the day P.M. Dawn was already ahead of the game. Unfortunately, The Corporate Music Monster shoved it's way in and did exactly what it's been doing for years now. Exactly what Coz said above:


...they could make money with his potential, if they shaped it towards their markets and interests. They filled his head with foreign thoughts and ideas, and started steering his image from one of consciousness to some psychedelic hippy persona.

It's truly unfortunate that this happens to artists. And we, as the listening public, just accepted it as just the way things are. We listened to our FM radios and watched our MTV and bought our cassettes/CD's/Vinyl of our favorite artists as brought to you through the eyes, ears and hands of The Corporate Music Monster.

It's time for P.M. Dawn to come out of the shadows. Release the new album and push for re-releases of the back catalogue. The public is ready. The "retro" movement is in full swing. Artists are moving away from The Corporate Music Monster and are embracing the indie label movement.

It's time for these corporations (and the government) to start paying attention to what the public wants, instead of trying tell us what we want.

----------------------------------------------

AM/FM is dead...satellite radio is where you can get all the music genre's you want commerical free.

The internet has been a major push for artists...especially the indie artists. How much support from the fans would P.M. Dawn have if it weren't for this website and those like it?

Screw the RIAA :fingas: and their lame attempts to attack those guilty of illegal music distribution. They've been going about it the wrong way since day one! They can't even sue the right people!

Screw the music corporations :fingas: (and an extra :fingas: to you Sony BMG) and their, even lamer, attempts to use copy protection devices. They're creating more distrust in the larger population of legal users than they are stoping the lesser population of illegal music distribution users!

[Cozmo D]

However, you seem to be saying that gimmicks used to sell PM Dawn's music were detrimental to the act, and I have trouble agreeing with that.Where the hell did you get that? I'm the fukkin wikki wikki man from outa space for cryin out loud! :rotf:

You have this rather annoying habit of reading what you want into my words, NOT ONCE did I ever use the word "gimmick", I used the word "image".

I'm a FIRM believer in gimmicks, hooks and themes. A simple perusal of my work and career will tell you that. What I was lamenting, and I thought I did it very plainly, was the manipulation and distortion of Be's IMAGE from a young, intelligent, black, concious, HIP-HOP artist to a British, eccentric, raceless, Hippy, ANTI-Hip-Hop, Pop artist. And THAT was detrimental to the MAN, and his LEGACY! ;)

[Wheeljak]

A'ight, Coz. I feel ya! :cheers:

[Cozmo D]

:cheers:

[Mistress M]

[pmFan]

What I was lamenting, and I thought I did it very plainly, was the manipulation and distortion of Be's IMAGE from a young, intelligent, black, concious, HIP-HOP artist to a British, eccentric, raceless, Hippy, ANTI-Hip-Hop, Pop artist. And THAT was detrimental to the MAN, and his LEGACY! ;)
:cheers: I hear ya!

[pmFan]

I honestly think it can still happen.. one powerhouse album and its back on for pm dawn.. i think their sound is welcomed in todays music..I totally agree! I don't know if a full album of Bliss Boyz would do it, but a little diversity would definitely attract different crowds... I can't wait to see what the new album holds. :clap:

[pmFan]

I definitely agree with the whole corporate monster thing. BUT, I heard of PM Dawn from the first *commercial* US success (Set Adrift). That got me in, and from there I was exploring what I could from the artist. I never heard the early/HipHop stuff (Ode to a Forgetful Mind, Twisted Mellow, and For the Love of Piece) until last year. Personally, I liked the first two albums the best. I never really watched the videos (maybe saw a couple of them) because I was working and into girls and computers back then (not much time for TV). I have never been big into traditional ballads, so some of Jesus Wept did not keep me into the scene (I'll Be Waiting for You, Why God Loves You, Miles From Anything, Sonchyenne). By then I was into grunge rock (Chicago area), and probably following that Monster again. Going back for some of my old music is what got me back into (catching up with) PM Dawn last year.

I can't wait to hear more.

[sdldawn]

I totally agree! I don't know if a full album of Bliss Boyz would do it, but a little diversity would definitely attract different crowds... I can't wait to see what the new album holds. :clap:

They don't even have to change their sound.. the mass didn't hear enough of it.. the little they did.. they ate it up..

"memory bliss"

"Die without you"

"Patient eye's"

they still eat those songs up...

[syxxpm]

though in all honesty i thought his JESUS WEPT image was the coolest....when he had the really long cornrows with beads and the blue silk outift...not to mention a couple of cool photos where he had on black leather pants and an infinity tshirt..( i refer to this as his mike hutchence phase)

and i liked is shaved head denim look too,,,,

[Cozmo D]

Yeah, I think I preferred be with a shaved head most of all. :)

[Hero1]

I thought the depressed guy with white beads on dearest christian was the best.. though like syxx I loved the downtown venus video and how he was rockin it back then... I don't think P.M. Dawn needs to go down the set adrift/die without u pop song road.. I want to see them go the underground/indie route.. I mean explore those different sounds.. the P.M. Dawn b-sides are arguably the best p.m. dawn tracks.. they are so varied..and weird..and wonderful.. just be writing.. sumthin a little stripped back.. going wherever he wants and releasing the album on itunes would suit me.. but BE likes his "pm dawn sheen" the large vocals and the session players and the big sound and the big pop ballad.. and I have no doubt he has an undeniable talent for that.. but at this stage I think P.M. Dawn could exist as more an alternative/indie/psychedilic type group.. I want the dark gritty raw P.M. dawn.. i want songs like savanahville/holdin u from eventually/non-fiction burning/you me the vibe electric/i hate myself for you/she dreams persistent maybes/lonely..i could be with you forever(perfect example)/as disappointing as your mercy... :)

[pmFan]

I definitely appreciated all of the artwork from all of the albums! I hope that eventually continues...

...i want songs like savanahville/holdin u from eventually/non-fiction burning/you me the vibe electric/i hate myself for you/she dreams persistent maybes/lonely..i could be with you forever(perfect example)/as disappointing as your mercy... :)
Wow! Some of those are *very* different. I definitely like the I Hate Myself For You and She Dreams Persistant Maybes, but Savanahville and You Me the Vibe Electric are too out there for me... Too each his own, though. :cheers:

[Etherspin]

vibe electric is awesome, as is non fict burning...