Totally Harsh

[Harmeister]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/world/asia/13fat.html?no_interstitial

Good thing Coz, Chief and I don't live in Japan...

[pmFan]

So what are they going to do with/to Sumo Wrestlers? Their whole profession is based on being huge!

[Cozmo D]

Damn...

[wendyful04]

Talk about a breeding ground for eating disorders!

[Mistress M]

The difference between Japan and here is that they do these campaigns but they also provide full-scale social services to help people to achieve these goals. You watch: soon they'll be doing that here. And they'll be denying anyone over the limit health insurance. And they still won't be taking care of the poverty that is the reason why so many people eat so badly (try getting good veggies around this hood that aren't crawling with roaches). Becuase if there's one thing about the American way, it's that we like to do shit like this half-assed, never actually address the problem, and further screw up people's lives.

[Etherspin]

sounds good to me !!!
if they are giving good diet and exercise advice it could avoid eating disorders couldnt it ?
its gotta be better than australia,england and the states, where a high percentage have eating disorders and an even higher percentage are obese...
free copies of wii fit for all i say!!

[wendyful04]

I don't think I could ever disorder my eating. I prefer to eat, drink, and move my ass.
Free rollerskates and frisbies for all.

[Mistress M]

sounds good to me !!!
if they are giving good diet and exercise advice it could avoid eating disorders couldnt it ?
its gotta be better than australia,england and the states, where a high percentage have eating disorders and an even higher percentage are obese...
free copies of wii fit for all i say!!

Obesity is an eating disorder, isn't it? :think:

[syxxpm]

to be politically correct,....it is caloric overachieving!! :D

[wendyful04]

Obesity is the result of an eating disorder.

[Thannor]

Wow. What about people that have a thyroid condition or some other ailment that doesn't make their weight gain a self-problem. I think it should be balanced. Instead of punishments there should be rewards also. Some people do not care what they look like vs. those who might need a helping hand.

[Hero1]

if someone smokes 30 cigarettes a day for 30 years and as a result has a long string of health problems should the government support them? If people are obese through their own food choices which results in helath complications should the government support them?

[ElizabethX]

All of these things tend to have something in common... it stems from something in the mind. Normal, healthy, happy people don't usually form unhealthy habits or addictions or other behaviors to hurt themselves. I understand that everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions and I agree, but we also need to show a little sympathy. Who knows how we would be or what we would choose, in their shoes? How do we truly know we are any better?

[Mistress M]

if someone smokes 30 cigarettes a day for 30 years and as a result has a long string of health problems should the government support them? If people are obese through their own food choices which results in helath complications should the government support them?

Yes.

Get over and past the "lifestyle choice" crap. You want to know why people are obese: http://depts.washington.edu/uwecor/events/poverty_obesity.htm

One word: Poverty. It costs a hell of a lot more to eat healthy than to eat crap. For 99 cents you can get an unhealthy mcdonald's burger, or an apple. If you're hungry, what are you going to pick? It takes more time to eat healthy than to pick up processed foods -- time that people working 2 or 3 jobs just to make it can't afford. Fresh and healthy choices are less available, less affordable, and less convenient to America's working poor.

And as to smoking, many people use it as a form of self-medication for fairly untreatable mental illnesses.

70% of people with Bipolar disorder smoke
60% of people with major depression smoke
90% of people with schizophrenia smoke
56% of people with panic disorder smoke
60% of people with post-traumatic stress disorder smoke
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/49511

quitting smoking is extremely hard for people who are using it to help treat an underlying mental illness. And there are no cures for these mental illnesses. Sometimes nicotine is still a better treatment than the available options which are often extremely toxic, addictive, and unhealthy.

I smoke to help with my biploar. It is the only thing that alleviates that crawling-out-of-my-skin feeling I often have. It may or may not eventually give me cancer. Then again, my meds may or may not eventually give me cancer too. And in the meantime, how am I supposed to function in society? Tobacco helps me do that. Tobacco helps a lot of people do that.

I'm tired of other people playing God, and thinking they know everything. I have as much right to get treated for a dehabilitating disease as anyone else even if I'm poor and smoke to treat a disease I have no control over. Someone born into poverty, working hard, barely scraping by who can only afford to eat cheetos for dinner, they deserve to be helped too. And since the government doesn't give a fuck to help alleviate poverty, alleviate mental health disorders, then yes, fuck them, let them pay for the long-term consequences of THEIR decisions.

[Hero1]

Why dont they tax the hell out of unhealthy fast foods and use that money to lower the cost of healthy food..


lps me do that. Tobacco helps a lot of people do that.

I'm tired of other people playing God, and thinking they know everything. I have as much right to get treated for a dehabilitating disease as anyone else even if I'm poor and smoke to treat a disease I have no control over.

You have every right to smoke, drink do whatever the hell you want to do to your body..but why should everyone else have to pay for your health as a result of your behavior.. I'm completely ignorant about whats goin on in america..but in Australia the health system is completely overrun..largely because of health problems which are a direct cause of lifestyle choices/obesity etc .. I think 50% of heart conditions are preventable.. I think now is the first time that we are living shorter lives than our parents..

[Mistress M]

Why dont they tax the hell out of unhealthy fast foods and use that money to lower the cost of healthy food..



You have every right to smoke, drink do whatever the hell you want to do to your body..but why should everyone else have to pay for your health as a result of your behavior.. I'm completely ignorant about whats goin on in america..but in Australia the health system is completely overrun..largely because of health problems which are a direct cause of lifestyle choices/obesity etc .. I think 50% of heart conditions are preventable.. I think now is the first time that we are living shorter lives than our parents..

My grandfather had the healthiest lifestyle imaginable -- never drank, never smoked, worked outside doing manual labor on the farm, ate the healthiest of fresh veggies and fruits that we grew, never overweight. He still got diabetes and ended up dying from heart disease, becuase that's genetics.

My uncle, also never drank or smoked, a marathon runner, never overweight, had a stroke in his 40's because of the stress of his job (he was on the "star wars" anti-missle defense project).

The biggest killers are stress, poverty, and a lack of preventative healthcare options. Punishing people for not choosing options that are not available to them is not the way. Even in Australia, the people most likely to be obese are poor, indigenous, and rural, and they are being denied effective treatment: http://news.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-3/Public-patients-denied-effective-obesity-treatment-8652-1/

"The major risk factor in poor health is poverty. Poverty is always the biggest cause of death. In South Australia for example, 38% more people die between the ages of 15 to 64 in Enfield, than is expected, given the death rate for the whole state. In the more affluent East Torrens, the death rate is 42% below the state average for 15 to 64 year olds. Poverty affects the health of people in many ways – poor nutrition, poor lifestyle, stress, poor nurturing, exclusion and addiction. The main reason why Indigenous Australians have poor health is because they are poor. Here again – the solution is not more medical services." http://www.unisa.edu.au/studysas/graduations/speeches/28mar06johnm.pdf


If you want to change the healthcare system, the way to do it is not to lobby for more restrictions to not treat people, but to lobby for the government to create programs to alleviate poverty, make better food choices available at cheaper rates, make necessary mental health drugs affordable and available to those who need it so they don't need to self-medicate with things like smoking or drinking. Saying: "Oh you made bad chocies so we're not going to treat you" is just going to mean more unnessecary deaths, not a change to people's lifestyle habits. Prevention, alleviation of poverty, access to proper healthcare/ food choices/ medication, that's what changes things. Not punishing people.

[Chief]

Less Govt....More self responsibility.....screw socialism....

[Cozmo D]

Without Socialism it is WE who are screwed! :tiphat:

[syxxpm]

*syxxpm watches attentively with popcorn as senator brian "chief"mccain and Barack o Cozmo ready their opening statements..... :D

[Chief]

still wanting to take handouts from the man then eh??? :)

[Cozmo D]

still wanting to take handouts from the man then eh??? :)

Like you don't!:fingas:

[Mistress M]

Less Govt....More self responsibility.....screw socialism....

Socialism is what made our society the most powerful in the world in the 1950's. It was welfare for the middle class with the New Deal Social Security, G.I. Bills, scholarships for education, public schools, gov't subsidized housing loans, etc etc.

Conservatives always want to go back to the morality of the 1950's but what about the financial security? I'd rather have that.

Also, studies have shown that the happiest people in the world live in socialist countries cause they don't have to worry about anything. No one worries about retirement, school, getting sick, housing, or food. You go to work everyday, and whatever you take home is yours to do whatever you want with because all the big stuff is taken care of. Wouldn't that be nice rather than having to worry about a downturn in the economy meaning that you lose your house, your health insurance, retirement, everything?

[Hero1]

If you want to change the healthcare system, the way to do it is not to lobby for more restrictions to not treat people, but to lobby for the government to create programs to alleviate poverty, make better food choices available at cheaper rates, make necessary mental health drugs affordable and available to those who need it so they don't need to self-medicate with things like smoking or drinking. Saying: "Oh you made bad chocies so we're not going to treat you" is just going to mean more unnessecary deaths, not a change to people's lifestyle habits. Prevention, alleviation of poverty, access to proper healthcare/ food choices/ medication, that's what changes things. Not punishing people.

hows life in that utopian world treating ya? :haha::haha: That's good in theory but it's never gonna happen..At least if there were direct consequences for people's behavior it might force it might make them a little more responsible. Also if people cut out all the junk food they buy..chocolates, chips, biscuits, snacks etc they might actually find they save money.. vegetables are also reasonably cheap at least compared to fruit..lentils are cheap and healthy.. There is a lack of responsibility for oneself actions in society these days..

[Etherspin]

dont people tend to pass on bad health and cuisine habits ?
education education education .
:D

[Mistress M]

hows life in that utopian world treating ya? :haha::haha: That's good in theory but it's never gonna happen..At least if there were direct consequences for people's behavior it might force it might make them a little more responsible. Also if people cut out all the junk food they buy..chocolates, chips, biscuits, snacks etc they might actually find they save money.. vegetables are also reasonably cheap at least compared to fruit..lentils are cheap and healthy.. There is a lack of responsibility for oneself actions in society these days..

Lentils are cheap and healthy if you have four hours to cook them. And BTW, living on beans and rice is one of the ways people end up obese.

Vegetables are not reasonably cheap compared to junk food in poorer neighborhoods. For 99 cents you can get two tomatoes or an entire bag of chips. If you're poor and you need that 99 cents to last you all day, which are you gunna pick? Fresh vegetables in my neighborhood are at a premium price. I spend 28 dollars a week to have a barely adequate supply of fresh fruit and vegetables in my house. Plus I still have to take hours to prepare them and cook them. For the same price, you have a weeks worth of McDonald's meals already prepared for you.

Further, you and Chief are really into the "personal responsibility" crap, but you're presupposing that everyone's pre-frontal cortex (the later developing part of the brain which is what makes you an "adult" able to make long-term decisions, see consequences to actions, and act responsibly) develops the same in all human beings, when EVERY neurobiological study indicates otherwise. Trauma studies have shown that children who grow up malnourished, neglected, or abused do not end up with a fully developed pre-frontal cortex. People with mental illnesses also have a lower functioning pre-frontal cortex which is why their behavior doesn't "fit in" with the rest of society. Middle class mores and values only work when you give people a middle class nutritional lifestyle from the get go. You can't expect children raised on junk food to then turn around as an adult and have the wherewithall to make different food choices.

Further, becuase of the extremely high diabetes rates, many people by the time they are adults in poor neighborhoods are already pre-diabetic if not diabetic before they are old enough to make their own food decisions. And that's going to affect your food choices. The diabetic body will crave starches and sugars. If you don't have the money for proper medical care to recognize, treat, and help the disease, you're just going to go on with your life and eat what you crave -- high caloric, starchy, junk food. Becuase it feels "right" to your body to do that.

I think you need to go to the poorest town in Australia and go to the supermarkets. See the prices, see the selection. Realize that if you're working two jobs to make ends meet, you only have about 15 minutes when you get home to prep your dinner and eat it, and you can only afford to spend about $20 on groceries. And with those constrictions, I'd like to see you eat for a month and see how healthy it is.

I'm not the one living in utopia. You're the one who is just assuming that everyone has the background, money, and choices you have.

[Chief]

Ive hooked a big one here...someone get the net!!!!!

[Hero1]

No, I think you've forgotten what the original argument was.. I'm talking about the Governments responsibility to pay for all the health services as a result of an overburdened health system due to lifestyle choices, and preventable diseases.. what if they just didn't pay for middle class and above's medical bills? would that make you happy

[Mistress M]

No, I just don't understand why we have to make healthcare into a moral soapbox where some people get to have healthcare and otehrs don't based on some people's idea of whether or not that person is "good" or "bad."

If a person is sick they should be able to get medical help. If the bigget killer of people is stress, are we going to kick successfull people out of the healthcare system too? What about soldiers -- most of their healthcare needs are job related, isn't that a lifestyle choice? Why pass judgment instead of just helping people?

[wendyful04]

Because I pay such high health insurance premiums AND because there are so many people I've encountered who can not quite afford health insurance, it's pretty difficult not to get incensed by others' constant, destructive health choices.
On the other hand, it's quite obvious that a lack of knowledge is a major factor in said destructive health choices.

Sometimes, when we go to Wal-mart, I play Count The Fat People with my son. It's horrible-sounding,yes, but it spurs from a conversation we once had after I was trying to explain to him about how people who haven't been taught how to eat properly tend to get really fat. (He 'rebels' against me by refusing to eat anything labeled as organic and has embraced junk food.)

It's quite disturbing, actually, to see how many obese poor people there are.

And just to further add to how politically incorrect I am with my kid, I also openly declare just how embarassed teen girls with babies should be, whenever I see one. And how embarassed the babies' fathers should be, too.

Here's another: I get pissed-the-fuck-off whenever one of my students gets sick over and over. I'm not talking about any sickness which they have no control over, I'm talking about getting sick all the time because of poor choices (not sleeping enough, eating crap food all the time, not getting enough water, licking or sucking on their dirty fingers).

[Hero1]

No, I just don't understand why we have to make healthcare into a moral soapbox where some people get to have healthcare and otehrs don't based on some people's idea of whether or not that person is "good" or "bad."

Its too costly? get it??? The numbers of sick people are rising.. We can't afford to pay for everyone.. there is an obesity epidemic.. I'm not suggesting we tell anyone how to live.. if you wanna smoke, drink do drugs eat junk food do whatever u want..just dont expect the govt rest of society to pay for your choices!

[Hero1]

Because I pay such high health insurance premiums AND because there are so many people I've encountered who can not quite afford health insurance, it's pretty difficult not to get incensed by others' constant, destructive health choices.


Well Said! :rock:

[Mistress M]

Its too costly? get it??? The numbers of sick people are rising.. We can't afford to pay for everyone.. there is an obesity epidemic.. I'm not suggesting we tell anyone how to live.. if you wanna smoke, drink do drugs eat junk food do whatever u want..just dont expect the govt rest of society to pay for your choices!

It's just in one ear and out the other with you.

Ok, so under your system:

How do we determine culpability in health problems? If we know that alcohol is a major contribuotr to diabetes, then anyone who has ever chosen to drink should be nixed from the system. How about anyone who ahs ever eaten sugar, since that causes diabetes, too. And if you've ever eaten fast food or fried food, that could have contributed to heart disease so those people should also be kicked out.

And let's not forget salt. Salt is a huge factor in hypertension, and hypertension contributes to heart disease. So anyone who eats salt regularly should definitely not be covered.

How about exercise? we know that exercise can help reduce health problems, so anyone choosing not to exercise at least 3 times a week for an hour or more should also be kicked out.

And let's not forget people who make the lifestyle choice to have babies. Babies and all the related healthcare costs are really expensive, and no one has to have children. Pregnancy can cause weight gain, hypertension, heart disease, and diabetes. That's a lifestyle choice we should kick people out on too.

And stress. Good old stress is the number 1 cause of health related problems, espeically heart disease. So anyone who chooses to have a stressfull job should definitely not be covered. That means people in the army, the police, firefighters, wall street executives, or any other stressfull job. Those people are a serious drain on the system and they should be taken out of it.

So now, for the five yogi-organic-vegetarian-yuppies left on the system, there'll be plenty of money in case they need it. :fingas:

[Mistress M]

Might I also add that since this is a forum based around two hard-working guys who have brought all of us a lot of pleasure in our lives, one of whom happens to be overweight and diabetic, it's pretty nasty that as far as you're concerned he should die on the street because he'd be a drain on your precious tax dollars.

[Chief]

wow

[ElizabethX]

Might I also add that since this is a forum based around two hard-working guys who have brought all of us a lot of pleasure in our lives, one of whom happens to be overweight and diabetic, it's pretty nasty that as far as you're concerned he should die on the street because he'd be a drain on your precious tax dollars.

Very interesting point, Mistress.

[Cozmo D]

She boiled your onion Tim! :lmao:

[Hero1]

Today on the news there is a 10 year old girl who needs open heart surgery and her operation has been delayed 5 times because our hospital/health system is in such a mess.. whats your solution mistress??? you just seem to be arguing against my point rather than coming up with a viable alternative..

[Mistress M]

My solution is to invest more money into the system, recruit more students to go into medicine, clean up the system. Not to kick people out of it.

[Hero1]

My solution is to invest more money into the system,

and where are you getting that money??

[Cozmo D]

Today on the news there is a 10 year old girl who needs open heart surgery and her operation has been delayed 5 times because our hospital/health system is in such a mess..
Why is it in such a mess? Got a link?

[wendyful04]

Might I also add that since this is a forum based around two hard-working guys who have brought all of us a lot of pleasure in our lives, one of whom happens to be overweight and diabetic, it's pretty nasty that as far as you're concerned he should die on the street because he'd be a drain on your precious tax dollars.

Are you talking about me?

[Hero1]

AUSTRALIA has become the fattest nation in the world, with more than 9 million adults now rated as obese or overweight, according to an alarming new report.

The most definitive picture of the national obesity crisis to date has found that Australians now outweigh Americans and face a future "fat bomb" that could cause 123,000 premature deaths over the next two decades.

If the crisis is not averted, obesity experts have warned, health costs could top $6 billion and an extra 700,000 people will be admitted to hospital for heart attacks, strokes and blood clots caused by excess weight.

The latest figures show 4 million Australians — or 26% of the adult population — are now obese compared to an estimated 25% of Americans. A further 5 million Australians are considered overweight.

The report, Australia's Future 'Fat Bomb', from Melbourne's Baker IDI Heart and Diabetes Institute, will be presented at the Federal Government's inquiry into obesity, which comes to Melbourne today.

A grim picture is painted of expanding waistlines fuelled by a boom in fast food and a decline in physical activity, turning us into a nation of sedentary couch potatoes.

Those most at risk of premature death are the middle-aged, with 70% of men and 60% of women aged 45 to 64 now classed as obese.

But some weight specialists have questioned the tool used to measure obesity, saying "entire rugby teams" would be classified as obese if their body mass index (BMI) was calculated.

BMI is measured by dividing weight in kilograms by height in metres squared. A BMI of over 25 is considered overweight while more than 30 is obese.

But the tool does not distinguish between muscle and fat, prompting calls for the BMI overweight limit to be raised to 28.

However, even leading nutritionist Jenny O'Dea from the University of Sydney — who recently claimed Australia's childhood obesity epidemic had been exaggerated — has backed the new figures, which suggest that the crisis for adults has been drastically underestimated

http://www.theage.com.au/national/nine-million-australians-are-a-ticking-fat-bomb-20080619-2tjv.html

[Mistress M]

Are you talking about me?

Wendy, I'm always talking about you. I talk about you in the shower, I talk about you at breakfast, I talk about you to my classes...you're like my shadow...

[Mistress M]

Oh, Tim, you gotta quote from the rest of the article:

"Among the radical solutions proposed in the report is a plan to make fat towns compete for "healthy" status in national weight loss contests tied to Federal Government funding. Towns that lost the most weight would be given cash to build sports centres and swimming pools.

And like the "Tidy Towns" program, communities would have to meet targets to be eligible for a share of the funding pool.

Other suggestions from Professor Stewart's report include subsidised gym memberships, personal training sessions for heavier people and restricting weight loss surgery to those who show they can lose some weight on their own first.

One of Australia's leading obesity experts, Boyd Swinburn, will tell the inquiry in his own submission that a crackdown on junk food marketing to children is paramount in the fight against the epidemic.

With the fastest growing rate of childhood obesity in the world, Australia must make radical changes to the way unhealthy food is promoted if the rate is to be reduced, his submission reads.

Professor Swinburn, director of the World Health Organisation Collaborating Centre for Obesity Prevention at Deakin University, will argue that better nutritional labelling and more funding for effective treatments such as weight-loss surgery are also necessary.

"We've got a huge problem here and we can't bury our head in the sand any more," Professor Swinburn will tell the inquiry.

"The previous federal government blamed parents and individuals and told them to pull up their socks … that's not going to achieve anything but make us fatter as a nation."


I especially like that last line.

These are creatice solutions to the problem which do not include tossing people out of the healthcare system.

Also, might I point out that all of this is fairly new. The Baby Boomers are the first generation to be well-fed on processed foods and living older and older. Our Great-grandparents all died by the age of 60; our grandparents never had processed foods and had a lot of lean times growing up; it's our aging parents who grew up in a world of overfeeding your kids processed foods and now can live to be 100 thanks to surgery and medicine that are the issue here.

And it's fascinating to me that dying at 70 of heart problems is considered dying "prematurely" -- that used to be the age you were lucky to live to. See what I mean?

We're really dealing with several crisis at once. We're dealing with the healthcare system being slammed by millions of baby boomers who we think should be living until they're 90. And we're dealing with what is a fairly normal old age obesity -- when the 60's and 70's was old age (which was only two generations ago). The problem is that we are NOT PREPARED for the reality of aging baby boomers across the world , and what that means to our resources pool. I don't think the problem is obesity, the problem is how we define what old age means and when it's time for someone to die.

[wendyful04]

Wendy, I'm always talking about you. I talk about you in the shower, I talk about you at breakfast, I talk about you to my classes...you're like my shadow...


yay

[Hero1]

Yeah I like all those ideas.. the amount of fast food advertising during childrens programs is ridiculous